SHTF Rifle vs Mountain Man Rifle

In most cases when the SHTF, the last option to consider is getting into a fight. If you are with a organized armed unit that may be different but your best choice is usually going to be alone or with just your family and avoid contact at almost any cost. Some may be happy to just take as many as they can with them, Not me, want to stay alive and free and get them all on my terms. :)

I agree with Jim on this. If TSHTF I want to move into the bush away from people. And, not to put too fine a point one it, if I absolutely need a different weapon, I will acquire one.
 
Ok, I'll jump in. I have a .22 cal single shot heavy barrel chipmunk by the rogue rifle company. As it has no open sights and is scoped, for it to be ideal I''d have to mount iron sights on it as well in case something happened to the scope. A spare bolt at the bottom of my pack would be a good idea too. I agree with alot of what I've heard about in a SHTF situation small game should be trapped rather than wasting ammo. As to it's ability to drop big game....while i wouldn't be going after big boars with it, I read an article many moons ago about an old indian who lived along the caribou migration path. He needed at least six animals to get by on and all he hunted them with was a .22. He focused on perfect shot placement and usually did very well. And of course it's well known in my area that a .22 is a deer poachers weapon of choice. While saying all this I'd also like to point out that I consider a rifle like this to only act as a buffer to keep me from starving to death before I can adapt to a LONG-TERM survival situation well enough to learn how to hunt/feed myself without it. The weapon that i think would be able to feed me indefinitely is a bow. I haven't made one, yet, but I have learned the basic principles of making both a bow and arrows from natural materials. In my mind the only weapons that can be depended one for long term survival are the ones you can make from materials you can find in the environment around you. Guns have only been around for a few hundred years. Bows, atlatls, and spears have been around for much, much longer. We did it before, we can do it again. Lets just hope it doesn't come to that, but lets be prepared anyway just in case it does.
As to dangers of the two legged variety: stay mobile and stay away. The best way to avoid losing a fight is to avoid people.
 
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Urban/suburban SHTF scenario, I'd probably have to go pistol. Plenty to scrounge around for in the city and I think a rifle or shotgun has the potential of making a target out of you. Probably best to appear non threatening until you need to be threatening. If you need a rifle you'll have plenty of options around.

That being said, I'm not sticking around if it happens.;)
 
I agree with the thought that avoiding unecessary contact/conflict with strangers would be a best bet. Home defense issues aside, with only one choice I would go with a 10/22 Ruger for overall utility and ammo availability, and I think most important the capacity to carry thousands of rounds.
 
I understand the idea of not looking for a fight.
But not the idea of deliberately not being prepared for one.

A fighting rifle can hunt just fine. A hunting rifle fight? Not so much (sniping isn't fighting, just to cover the first post-in-protest).

A .22 -- seriously? Why?
"Because I can carry a lot of ammo for it."? Really? What are you going to use the ammo for? To hunt? I don't care how much ammo you are carrying, you won't have enough to regularly shoot your food -- unless you are operating out of a base, beit your home, bug out location or what have you. If we are operating from such a place, then I'm taking all my guns, screw just one (BTW, my home is a nearly ideal BOL, so it's not likely that I'd leave).

So, IMO, while you shouldn't go look for a fight, you should be ready should one come looking for you.

BTW, I also agree with Vec as to the shotgun, but the OP said rifle, so I went with that.

No argument here, guys, just giving you another direction to look at it from.
 
Marlin 357 levergun, small light and accurate. Unassuming and would not put people on edge as quickly as an EBR, yet will hold it's own for SD. Ammo is small, light and plentiful, good small game rifle with round nose 38 spl ammo, large enough to take whitetail deer size game with full house 357s. Chris

What he said. An 1894 would handle 99.9% of SHTF tasks and wouldn't make me look like I wished I was a soldier of some sort.
 
I understand the idea of not looking for a fight.
But not the idea of deliberately not being prepared for one.

A fighting rifle can hunt just fine. A hunting rifle fight? Not so much (sniping isn't fighting, just to cover the first post-in-protest).

A .22 -- seriously? Why?
"Because I can carry a lot of ammo for it."? Really? What are you going to use the ammo for? To hunt? I don't care how much ammo you are carrying, you won't have enough to regularly shoot your food -- unless you are operating out of a base, beit your home, bug out location or what have you. If we are operating from such a place, then I'm taking all my guns, screw just one (BTW, my home is a nearly ideal BOL, so it's not likely that I'd leave).

So, IMO, while you shouldn't go look for a fight, you should be ready should one come looking for you.

BTW, I also agree with Vec as to the shotgun, but the OP said rifle, so I went with that.

No argument here, guys, just giving you another direction to look at it from.

I understand your thinking Cpl., but I'm sticking with the .22. Why? Partially because of ammo availability, and the ability to carry a lot of rounds. Actually, for the way my mind works, a good .22 pistol would work pretty well. Do I plan on using a .22 as an assault weapon? Of course not: the thought of doing that is ludicrous. Do I think that a .22 is a defensive weapon? Of course not, and certainly not a pistol.

I live in the middle of a large city (San Diego). In a SHTF situation I'll be working my way out to the most deserted portion of the mountains that I can, just as fast as my old legs will carry me, because this city will be a death trap in that situation. I know that I can no longer hump the weight of a good defensive rifle and associated ammo: it's just not in the cards. But a .22? Yep, I can carry that. While it's a small round, it's certainly capable of keeping me fed for awhile. I wouldn't count on any rifle, of any caliber, to feed me for long: there are too many alternative methods (traps, etc.) for that to be viable.

Defense? I know a little about that, actually, and to me, the best defense is invisibility. I spent nine years of my life as a Recon Marine, so I'm pretty well trained in hiding and avoiding undesirable people. If I should find that I want a heavier weapon, for hunting or defense, then — trust me — I'll get it.

No, overall — for me — a .22 is the best choice. YMMV, of course.
 
I understand the idea of not looking for a fight.
But not the idea of deliberately not being prepared for one.

A fighting rifle can hunt just fine. A hunting rifle fight? Not so much (sniping isn't fighting, just to cover the first post-in-protest).

So, IMO, while you shouldn't go look for a fight, you should be ready should one come looking for you.

I'm with Cpl P, I would rather be ready for a fight and not have one then not be ready and find myself in one. So yes for me my choice would change. For mountain man rifle i would choose a bolt action .303/30-06 or a lever action 444/450/45-70 but if SHTF my first choice would be my CZ 858. I have a decent supply of ammo for it and surplus 7.62x39 is fairly readily available in Canada. Remove the pins from the mags(in Canada semi auto centerfire's are legally limited to 5 rnds, so regular mags are riveted to limit their capacity) and you have a competent combat rifle. I have a chest rig for it and can put a folding stock on it for compactness.

My second choice for rifle is actually my 590 with slugs. I feel competent with it out to 100-150 yards although ammo is heavy.

Third choice is my heavy barrel savage 308 "sniper rifle" along with my short barrel 10/22 with 25rd mags. The 10/22 would give me adequate firepower at standoff distances while the 308 provides some knockdown punch.

If SHTF would you only be taking a rifle or would you add a sidearm? If S truly is hitting the fan, id also add my 1911.
 
As some have posted their general locations...that has a lot of impact as to what's ideal for them. Rural and Urban will be very different post-major SHTF. Avoiding a fight is the best way to "survive", but it you can't it's nice to have adequate firepower to break contact or pin the bastards down.

My wife gave me Mel Tappan's Survival Guns. A bit dated, but an interesting read.

I'm no longer in a sub-urban or urban location, but if that was the case, I would opt for my M1A Bush or FAL for staying home. If I was on foot or trying to get to home or out of town, I would much rather opt for an AR or even an AK...both are lighter, more compact and you can carry more ammo...being mobile makes you more likely to run into trouble. Also, if the SHTF isn't too severe, they are compact enough to conceal in a tennis racket bag or backpack...again, avoiding unnecessary attention. For an even lower profile, a decent semi auto pistol (Glock/1911/CZ) with a .22LR conversion kit (I love’em!) and my Springfield M6 Scout in .22LR/.410 would be great for close range self defense and acquiring game as I move from urban to rural. The whole point would be to keep a very low profile, avoid people and move off road and travel at night or very early morning. A sound suppressor would be an nice addition…

Being in a more rural setting I would be comfortable with my Savage Scout in 308 or my Winchester 94-Trapper in .357. If I felt the need to have a little more firepower, it would be my M1A Bush in 308.

The .22LR and 20/12 gauge are still excellent choices and if they're not your primary, they should be secondary choices.

Lastly, a good semi-auto pistol in a common caliber (9mm, .40S&W or .45) is essential for concealed carry and 24/7 self-defense. A revolver will do if trained to speed load properly and quickly.

Right now, I'd be more than comfortable if I was on foot in my current location with my Savage 110 Scout in 308 (2.75 Scout scope); NEF 20ga single shot (game getter) and a semi auto with a .22LR conversion kit (I have conversion kits for my Kimber TLE .45, Sig 220 .45, Glock 19/23, and CZ 75/85/PO1).

BTW, if Mep Tappan was selecting your “survival” arsenal, you’d need a small moving truck for all the different firearms and ammo:D

ROCK6
 
A Ruger 10/22, and thousands of rounds for it. It can shoot forever without being picky about cleaning, can carry TONS of ammo, ammo is everywhere. With a couple 50 rnd mags, you can send alot of lead fast and not kill your self with recoil. It is relatively accurate, squirrels, rabbits, head shots on deer, are all possible under 100 yards.
That coupled with a reliable shotgun like the Mossberg 500 or Remington 870, you have 2 guns that can kill, can make meat, wont break, and ammo can be found any where.
One of my NEF single barrel shotguns would be excellent for non self defense survival as well.
 
Rock, I understand your choices, and think they're good ones. If I had my druthers, I'd have a plain old M1A1, and a ton of ammo. The problem is, I couldn't carry it more than a couple of miles.

In the described situation I would be trying to put about 60 miles behind me — on foot — just as fast as was prudently possible. For me, for practical purposes, it's .22 or nothing (well, probably a 9 mm tucked away, too).
 
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I am in the same situation as DawsonBob,

That's why I would carry a 22 LR. I live in the SF Bay Area. I would not want to stay here if the SHTF was going to be prolonged. Food would quickly become a problem and chaos would shortly break out. I would have to go pretty far to get out of the way and I could not carry enough food to get there. So I would need to acquire food on the fly and a 22 LR is quite and I think that would be really important.

That’s why I have a good fishing kit also. That’s really quite. Trapping is the best way long term, but is unproductive when you are on the run.

Our situation does make a difference.

Thanks,

Geoff
 
Rock, I understand your choices, and think they're good ones. If I had my druthers, I'd have a plain old M1A1, and a ton of ammo. The problem is, I couldn't carry it more than a couple of miles.

In the described situation I would be trying to put about 60 miles behind me — on foot — just as fast as was prudently possible. For me, for practical purposes, it's .22 or nothing (well, probably a 9 mm tucked away, too.

Yeah, like I said...every situation is going to be different. 60 miles is a heck of a hump. A simple .22LR (I like my Marlin Papoose) and a good sidearm would be light enough to travel fast and keep a very low profile. For a localized or regional SHTF, I still would want to be seen carrying around a rifle or shotgun...it attracts too much unwanted attention...it's a tough balance to keep yourself from looking like a target but also not being perceived as a threat to locals or law-enforcement.

Speaking of the 'ol AR; I have all the parts to build two more AR's. One is going to be a very lightweight model (16" lightweight barrel, A1 upper-fixed sights only and a Magpul CTR stock)...

ROCK6
 
Yeah, like I said...every situation is going to be different. 60 miles is a heck of a hump. A simple .22LR (I like my Marlin Papoose) and a good sidearm would be light enough to travel fast and keep a very low profile. For a localized or regional SHTF, I still would want to be seen carrying around a rifle or shotgun...it attracts too much unwanted attention...it's a tough balance to keep yourself from looking like a target but also not being perceived as a threat to locals or law-enforcement.

Speaking of the 'ol AR; I have all the parts to build two more AR's. One is going to be a very lightweight model (16" lightweight barrel, A1 upper-fixed sights only and a Magpul CTR stock)...

ROCK6

That's the thing, Rock. Like you said, every situation is going to be different. Yep, 60 miles is a pretty good hump. Probably take me over a week, because I would sneak and peek along the way to avoid contact as much as possible, and foraging takes time, too.

One of the odd things, as I understand it, is that — in an actual SHTF scenario — comparatively few people would be bugging out. Most urban dwellers are unprepared, don't have the proper mindset, and would tend to stay home to "wait it out." That should leave the way open for those few of us who will get moving. Most people will trust the Government to come in and "fix it," whereas anyone who has looked at the situation here locally knows that, after three days, there will be no food, no water, no transportation, etc.. If I read the situation as it being time to bug out, then I'm leaving right then: if I'm wrong, I can always come back.

Like you, I don't want to flash a lot of weaponry in that situation: my .22 will do. While an AR would be really great for a number of reasons, I think I would rather have an old M14... if I didn't have to hump it. It has some reach, some knock-down power, and it's accurate, to boot. I just don't want to have to carry it. I tried carrying one for a little while in Nam, and got rid of it for a Swedish K. If I thought it was too heavy when I was twenty, imagine what it would do to me at 64.
 
My only rifle is a 10/22. While that would do the job of feeding myself, as several have suggested, I think I'd prefer to have a Moss. 500 or Rem. 870 if I needed to defend myself.

Still, even the lowly .22 would probably be enough of a deterrent to send someone looking for an easier victim; I just don't like the "probably" part . . .
 
My only rifle is a 10/22. While that would do the job of feeding myself, as several have suggested, I think I'd prefer to have a Moss. 500 or Rem. 870 if I needed to defend myself.

Still, even the lowly .22 would probably be enough of a deterrent to send someone looking for an easier victim; I just don't like the "probably" part . . .

One of the problems with having any of those, is that they won't necessarily be a deterrent to any one. If there are bad guys out there, as there most assuredly will be, who see you carrying those weapons, they'll just shoot you from cover, then take them. A .22 will do nicely, and probably not arouse the interest your shotgun would. Just a thought.
 
I understand the idea of not looking for a fight.
But not the idea of deliberately not being prepared for one.

A fighting rifle can hunt just fine. A hunting rifle fight? Not so much (sniping isn't fighting, just to cover the first post-in-protest).

A .22 -- seriously? Why?
"Because I can carry a lot of ammo for it."? Really? What are you going to use the ammo for? To hunt? I don't care how much ammo you are carrying, you won't have enough to regularly shoot your food -- unless you are operating out of a base, beit your home, bug out location or what have you. If we are operating from such a place, then I'm taking all my guns, screw just one (BTW, my home is a nearly ideal BOL, so it's not likely that I'd leave).

So, IMO, while you shouldn't go look for a fight, you should be ready should one come looking for you.

BTW, I also agree with Vec as to the shotgun, but the OP said rifle, so I went with that.

No argument here, guys, just giving you another direction to look at it from.

I see your point, and if I was able I would take several guns. My fav self defense gun is my mossberg 500. But when considering just one gun, that amount of ammo I figure i can pack ( and I figure I can carry more .22 ammo than any other kind and extend my ability to hunt food with a firearm) and reliability I choose my single shot .22. And as I said I only consider a gun as a buffer or emergency way of securing food until I have enough woodcraft to feed myself without it. I still think the best bet is to avoid people. I don't disagree with you on the need to be prepared to fight, I just see starvation being more likely to kill me than my fellow man if I'm trying to avoid them. If this still doesn't make sense to you then I reckon we'll just have to disagree.
 
Well since I have the reloading dies for .45-70 and enough powder and brass for 1,000rds +.

I'll stick with my Marlin Lever Gun in .45-70
 
I still think the best bet is to avoid people. I don't disagree with you on the need to be prepared to fight, I just see starvation being more likely to kill me than my fellow man if I'm trying to avoid them. If this still doesn't make sense to you then I reckon we'll just have to disagree.

I agree, in the long term.
Problem is, you have to get through the short term to get to the long term. In the first bit of time after Disaster X, is when people will panic the most and be the most unpredictable. After things settle down a bit, you will be dealing with survivors and people who have learned to cope, there will be less fighting and more cooperating to survive. You can't remain a lone wolf indefinitely.

The problem with these one gun scenarios is that there is two missions which work best with two different toolsets.

Mission 1: Live long enough to start surviving and rebuilding.
Mission 2: Long term survival and rebuilding.

Mission 1 is best served by a fighting gun. IMO the Ak and FAL reign supreme here because they can, indeed, be carried in a tennis racket bag, skateboard bag, large duffel bag or one of the long, slender "tower" type backpacks that people like to use -- presuming you're using a folding stock model -- i.e. bags one would expect a refugee to have. This is important to urban dwellers walking out (walking should be a last resort, BTW, not a first resort) because their biggest threat won't be looters, but police an military who will perform a knee-jerk gun confiscation campaign. No matter what you carry, you won't outgun them, so fighting them is not an option.

Once clear you may have to fight to get where you're going, whether you want to or not. I don't care how ninja-like you are, everyone can screw up, and on the other side of the coin, the bad guys can just get lucky.

Now for this phase, you really don't need a lot of ammo, and if you do, as a single person, or dragging a wife and kids along, you probably won't survive such a fight even if you had the ammo. Which brings up another point: if you have a wife and kids, it doesn't matter how good you are, they aren't.

There are several ways to discreetly carry such a weapon and enough ammo (I'd carry one magazine for the gun, and 4 spares -- not a lot of weight).

Mission #2: Long term survival, is better served by a good foraging gun. I like the idea of a .22Mag over, 20ga or 12ga under combo gun. .22 Mag doesn't deviate more than an inch from 0 to 100 yards with a 100 yard zero, making it much easier to hit with than a .22LR, and the ammo isn't much bigger, nor does it weigh much more. IMO a lot more utility for little extra weight and bulk. The shotgun, bigger game and/or birds.

The dilemma comes in of which to choose?
Do I want to take the fighting gun and risk running out of ammo when it comes to hunting (why aren't you trapping, snaring, and starting your own garden?), or do I want to take the hunting gun and possibly not live to get to the point of not needing a fighting weapon?

So, once again, I'll choose the gun most likely to get me to the long term survival phase alive, and depend on tools that can be made on the fly and are much more efficient and reliable means of food gathering to get my groceries.
 
In a more rural setting, I would consider my upgraded Springfield M1A with quick detachable scope. I like the .308 round for punch and availability in a defensive situation. I like the accuracy and reliability of the rifle. Also like the 20 rd mags. I've made a cross-canyon shot of well over 400 yds on a blacktail buck and I felt comfortable hunting big hogs with it.

DancesWithKnives
 
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