Simonich Talon vs. Camillus Talon

[NamViet Vo]

Is there any difference in the heat treatment between the Simonich Talonite blade and that of Camillus?

 

[Brian Lavin]

Nam, Talonite doesn't get heat treated at all. Now, I'm not going to try and explain it, cause I'd probably get it mixed up, but the particular cobalt based metal is air hardened, from what I understand. I'm sure one of the more informed like bald1, Rob Simonich, or Dr Walt will jump in here and clean up after me!

------------------
Buck Collectors Club Member # 572
Dedicated ELU
Talonite fan
Knifeknut(just ask my wife)

[This message has been edited by Brian Lavin (edited 06-08-2000).]

 

[Rob Simonich]

Nam, Talonite is age hardened during manufacturing and requires no heat treating. The age hardening is accomplished by clamping the billets between 2 4" thick pieces of steel and then heated to a particular temperature, (I am not sure but think around 1900 far) and held at temp for several hours and air cooled. The annealing point of Talonite is about 2250 deg so there shouldnt be any difference in performance between the Talon and the Cetan IF edge geometries are the same. At a 2250 deg anneal point, I would safely say you could ust it for a fire poker and not damage it at all. I have also tried improving Talonite with heat treatment and cryo treatment to no avail. Hope that helps and hope you are enjoying your Talonite Cetan!

------------------
www.simonichknives.com

 

[Steelwolf]

So, the question just begs to be asked:
Are the edge geometries the same?

If so, what are the differences and are they really worth it?

Off hand, I can think of some:
1. No 2 year waiting time on the Talon
2. Talon slightly cheaper than Cetan
3. G-10 versus choice of handle material
4. Fixed 4" blade length versus choice of length (within reason)
5. Handmade quality with craftman's attention to detail versus factory production.

From the pictures, it seems that the Cetan has a better surface finish too. So, please forgive me if the question seems a little impertinent, but I really want to know what I'm trading off on if I get the Talon instead of ordering a Cetan.

Thanks in advance.

 

[David1967]

Steelwolf,

I am sure that Rob makes excellent knives. I also had this kind of dilemma. But two years is too long to wait. And the Talon is excellent knife as well. 200.00 USD is a lot for me but I think it is worth it.

David

------------------
DIVERTI NESCIO

---------------
My Photopoint pictures

Mikov Knives

Visit our region

 

[Cougar Allen]

If the edge geometry isn't the same on arrival it'll only take a few minutes to change it ... basically what Rob is saying is the metal is the same so if it performs any different it's because you sharpened it differently.

Sometimes when a factory licenses a design from a maker they don't make it the same -- they use a different alloy, a different heat-treatment (in steel), sometimes they make substantial changes in the design to adapt it to mass production -- sometimes it really isn't the same knife. Everything I'm hearing from Rob and from Camillus is saying that's not what's happening with the Talon -- this is not one of those times when a custom maker has been making a convex ground pattern-welded drop point with an oosic handle and a factory licenses the name and uses it for a hollow ground stainless tanto with a plastic handle. The Talon really is the same as a talonite Cetan and the only differences are the unavoidable differences between a factory knife and a custom made knife, which Steelwolf listed above.

A talonite fire poker is an interesting idea ... it would stay shiny ... you could give it a mirror finish and it would stay that way....

-Cougar :{)

 

[PENGUIN]

Having both Cetan & Talon and having used both I have not been able to discern any real world functional differences between the two as far as cutting ability. The edge on my Talon was slightly thinner than Rob's Cetan but in cutting similar materials there is no advantage - there is not enough difference in edge thickness and owing to the characteristics of the Talonite they both cut equally well. I will always prefer Rob's over the Talon because of the little bit of himself he adds to every knife he makes and I just happen to prefer Micarta over G-10. It may get a little tougher on Wednesday when my stag Talon arrives. I do think that the hand finish is better on Rob's. The Talon is done so well & the quality of workmanship is first-rate - I highly recommend without qualification the Talon as a using utility knife that will provide years of service with near custom quality, fit & finish - plus the sheath is extremely nice! If you want a custom with Rob's name on it, wait two years, but if you want a knife to use for those two years that comes so very close get the Talon. Either way you win - or get both!

Bill

 

[dogboye]

Given that they are both Talonite, in this case, and this case only, I would buy the Talon instead of the Cetan, pretty quickly. But, I would ONLY do that with Talonite, and I think it is fair to say, only with the Camillus Talon, for a couple of reasons. If you go to Rob's web site, I think you'll see at the entrance that Rob mentions the Talon, favorably, as a way for people to get his design for quicker and cheaper. Pretty good endorsement, as far as I'm concerned. Additionally, following these forums, it is obvious that Rob is impressed with the Talon. And, you're not subjected to the possibly spotty heat treat that you MIGHT get with some factories, since it is not REALLY heat treated, per se.

However, if it were some type of steel, I'd wait the wait and go with a custom Simonich. After having owned and used one in ATS-34, I can say that the ATS-34 that is in Rob's Cetan is an entirely different animal to the factory ATS that I have experienced. No comparison.

Note that I don't have a Talon, or a Talonite Cetan. Just that I do have some experience with one of Rob's knives.

------------------
iktomi

 

[HJK]

No doubt they both are excellent using knives, but having a handmade Simonich talonite with his personal touch is a must for any one who appreciates customs and wants what I think is an significant
knife from a historical point of view. If the two year wait is too long for you, as it is for me, you might consider looking to Les Robertson and I think also Triple Aught who do tend to get some from time to time.

 

[Steelwolf]

Many thanks for all the answers. I guess I intuitively knew what the differences were, but I could not bring myself to believe that a factory knife could be touted as on par with its custom counterpart, especially when you're talking about a high quality custom maker like Rob. And then there's the price difference too. But that's probably the advantage of large scale production in a major company. After the R&D is done, and since this material does not need the careful attention of a custom maker, a large company with advanced mass production equipment should be able to replicate the design at lower cost with no loss in performance. I agree, too, that with a temperamental beast like steel, the attentions of a master craftsman will make a difference.

 

[bald1]

Guys,


Functionality is undoubtedly the same as the blade material is the same and edge geometry very, very close.

The differences are pretty straight forward. Camillus uses a different means to affix the handle. Rob offers numerous handle materials. Camillus has modified the finger choil giving a slightly longer edge for the same overall blade length. And of course the sheaths are different.

Wait notwithstanding, Rob's work is well worth acquiring!

------------------
-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute; Varmint Hunters Association;
National Rifle Association; Praire Thunder Inc.; Rapid City Rifle Club;
Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club; Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!

 

[jeffj]

I agree with bald1...I have both and the attention to detail of the custom Cetan is very good. The Talon I have is ground off-center at the finger choil noticeably. I can't say if this is common and probably would say that it isn't. The kydex on the Talon sheath is thicker than on my custom Cetan. The handle on the Talon is slightly blocky compared to the Cetan...I suspect this is due to the fluting of the scales...but don't get me wrong it is by no means uncomfortable. The only thing that I really don't like on the Talon is the bulky techlock. (Hey Will...got some of those smaller ones yet? I'd love it if you'd send me one!) I know I'm being picky because I wouldn't get rid of either. Both knives are excellent and in my opinion well worth it.

Jeff Jenness

 

[NamViet Vo]

I love the blade to handle ratio on this Camillus. I am trying to find a way to adapt this knife to my boot. My wife used her to dress a chicken over the weekend and cut herself about 0.25 inch deep and 2 inches long. Now she think the knife is taboo and does not want me to carry mine. What to do? What to do?

 

[Alan_B]

Nam,

I got my Talon yesterday. It is a perfect size for a wide range of utility tasks. Also, if you can't carry/use your Talon anymore I'm sure that almost any of us would be glad to carry it for you

.

 

[Steelwolf]

Alan_B, I'm sure most of us would.

Nam, don't know if this will help:
All blades have a sort of "spirit". (lack of a better word) The "spirit" will either be weak or strong. This strength usually depends on the blade's purpose, design and maker. Usually, fighting blades by good custom makers have the strongest "spirits".

If the "spirit" is weak, there is no problem. Anyone can carry the knife, use it for just about anything, mistreat it, whatever. There will be no casualties, or if there is, it's usually because of some stupidity on the user's part.

If the "spirit" is strong, then the blade should only be owned and used by one person. That person is usually the first user whose blood is tasted by the blade. I'm not sure about other cultures, but the Japanese Samurai always christianed their dai-katanas with their own blood in a special ceremony. These days, we don't do that sort of thing. So a blade with a strong "spirit" is usually free to find its own master. And that means a little bloodletting on an unsuspecting person. In this case, your wife.

So tell her how priviledged she is that the blade has chosen her. No one else should be allowed to use that blade. It is hers for life and can only be passed to blood descendants. Oh and BTW, please warn the descendant receiving the blade to expect a little bloodletting as the blade gets to know its new master.

And in case she's worried about having to sacrifice blood everytime she uses the blade, tell her that fortunately, most blades, after a little bloodletting, tend to settle down and serve their master without any further problems. Just watch out for those blades that seem to keep cutting you everytime you use it. That indicates a strong and aggressive "spirit". Or a strong knife that has not found its desired master. In this case, there are two options.
1. Blood christianing. Not pleasent, usually messy and does not guarantee that the blade will behave itself. Usually the master has to have a spirit stronger than the blade for this to work.

2. Keep the blade away safely and either pass it on to the next generation when they come of age, or give it away to a passing itinerant swordsman (or in these modern times, sell it or trade it).

There is, of course, option 3, which is to destroy it, but that would be sacrilege.

So, Nam, tell your wife this story and try to convince her. If not, I'll send you my address and a money order, and you can send me both blades.

 

[HJK]

And I thought that I was a knife knut!

 

[Steelwolf]

HJK, If you're referring to me

You ain't seen nothing yet

This is only an adaptation of the Japanese tradition, thought admittedly, it was limited to the dai-katana of the samurais.