Simple heat treat question

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Apr 16, 2004
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I usually work with 1/8" CPM154 but am now working with the 3/16" stuff and need some advice. The 3/16" blades just look better to me...personal preference....

My 1/8" recipie was 1925 degrees at 30 minutes and then a 3x temper at 375, which would give me a Rc of 61 in the finished product. Moving on to the 3/16", I went 1950 degrees for 30 minutes and the 3x temper but only ended up with a 60 Rc. I really want to bump it up to 61 again on the finished product and am wondering what aspect of my ht I need to revise.

When moving up in thickness, in general terms, do you increase the temp or the time...or both?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Hank
 
Hank

Generally speaking soak times shouldn't change any for anything 1/4" or less in thickness. Your difference in hardness might be due to differences in the composition of the two different lots of steels. I would consider 1925F° on the high end of the austenizing scale for ATS34. I normally austenize at 1875F°. The higher soak times at higher temperatures will promote grain growth making the steel harder but much more brittle even after the temper cycle. I have not tested the ATS34 for grain size at different temps, so I can't say for sure what your grain size might be. Kevin might be able to shed some light on this, but I'm not sure if he dabbles in stainless or not. Hope this is of some help.

Jim Arbuckle
ABS JS
 
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Rob!

:D
 
You don't need to change your recipe going from 1/8" to 3/16". Time or temp.

Higher austenitizing temps can increase retained austenite, lowering Rockwell hardness and fine edge stability. If that is the case a dip into cryo before tempering helps.

A lot of testers are only repeatable within a couple points, your reading could also be a fluke. 1 point difference isn't much.
 
Nathan is right.
There are other aspects of HT. Are you plate quenching ? That might make some difference .Cryo would add 1-2 HRc .In any case you have a very fine steel , one of my favorites, don't look just at hardness.
 
Thanks for the replies...very much appreciated. I quench with forced air. I use a fan blowing on the blades the instant I take them out of the oven and put them under the air. I wish I could learn more about plate quenching...it sure sounds like the way to go. The only thing I have heard about it is "use 1" thick aluminum to plate quench"...and that is all. I might just leave it at 1925 degrees then and see what happens. Might get a better fan as well....opinions are always appreciated...I sure don't have all the answers and am never too smart to learn. Thanks again.
 
Plate quench - remove blade from oven [in the foil ] put between two aluminum plates with some pressure on the plates .Cool to room temperature .
Too simple for you ??
 
Thanks Mr. Mete....you have indeed taken all the mystery out of it. I usually ht in batches of 4-6, or so....how would you handle that? I would assume you yank 'em out all at once, put on aluminum plate and then put the other plate on top? The reason I ask such a simple question is, it appears to me that the period of time that the blades are out of the oven until they are quenched (air or plate) is critical...ie: the faster you get them quenched the higher the initial hardness. So.....you might be setting yourself up for some relatively softer blades if you are handicapped by having to move 4-6 blades as opposed to just one.

Your feedback is appreciated. Thanks and let me know what you think.
 
You could put more than one blade in foil. However they must be layed out flat not stacked side to side [that would risk warping and soft blades]. With a large piece of foil and large quench plates you could do a group.
 
I have done up to 4 blades at once in 2 foil packs with plates. I have 7/8' x 8" x 14" plates and I put them in the freezer while the knives are heating. They barely warm up quenching 4 blades. It works great. Wrap the blades like Mete said above.
 
I have tried the putting the plates into the freezer thing with A2, and quenching a 1/16" to even a 3/16" thick blade, caused some MAJOR warping. Is that abnormal should I take the plate off before the blade is to room temperature?

How can you quench to room temperature if you're suppose to start tempering at 120' - 150' F ?

After I stopped putting the plates in the freezer, quenching with room temperature plates didn't work (AS FAST), but faster than still air and didn't cause that CRAZY warping.
 
Crucible's directions for A2 are cool to below +150 F before tempering.You don't need to cool the plates. As far as your warping I think there's something in the details you're not mentioning.
 
Crucible's directions for A2 are cool to below +150 F before tempering.You don't need to cool the plates. As far as your warping I think there's something in the details you're not mentioning.

I open the door of the kiln at Austenizing Temp take the blade out (still in foil wrap) then put it between two aluminum plates (which have been in the freezer for i dunno...over an hour). Stand on top of the plates, but I don't completely wait till the blade is as cold as the plate itself, take off the top plate, cut open the foil and BAM ! it's WARPED as if i put it in a bucket of water ! Cept it's not completely cooled down either so again, the warp can be fixed with some pressure .....

isn't the FROZEN aluminum plates a bit too violent of quench for A2 technically? Causing the crazy warp ?...

like i said, if i don't freeze the plates, it doesn't warp as it's being quenched at room temperature plates.

I have personally never tried leaving the knife in between the frozen plates for several minutes until they cool completely down....maybe that's the problem Mete ?
 
I'll heat treat up to five blades at a time. They are individually wrapped in foil. The seams are folded, rolled and folded again. The seams are outside of the blade, meaning the seams will not come between the blade and the plates, and they are thinner than the blade so they will not prevent the blade from making good contact with both plates.

I have one heavy plate on my bench with another suspended above it with a chain. I pull out one blade and put it between the plates and lover the upper plate on it. It weighs about 75 lbs. A lighter plate will work just fine, but you'll need to apply pressure so it irons out the blade, otherwise areas that are touching will cool faster than areas that are not, the weight flattens out little bends that prevent even contact. This reduces warping.

Once the blade has cooled to 400-600 degrees I pull it out and remove the foil and straighten it. Things like the tip and the edge that don't touch the plate are free to move and need to be corrected if they are thin (I'll go as thin a .010). Once it starts to "set up" you need to stop, even if you don't break it, you can weaken it. I continue to let the parts cool to room temp. A2 might should get a snap temper. Stainless and D2 go directly into cryo.

A2 will benefit from cryo if you're making a hard thin type of blade that utilizes a lower tempering temperature and you're wanting fine edge stability. If you're making a chopper some RA probably isn't a bad thing, and the higher tempering temps will probably decompose it anyway.

But, back to plate quenching: After I pull the blade out of the plates, I'll stick in the next. I only left the oven open for a second while I pulled out the first blade, but things did cool down a little bit. There is a misconception that blades must be quenched from austenitizing temperature, so as soon as they start to cool down the quench must proceed. That is not the case. Things only need to progress quickly while you're near the nose, and with simple steels, but if you're austenitizing at 1850, and it drops to 1800 deg, the clock isn't ticking. The time and temp you soaked at are what counts, not the temp of the steel when it is quenched (within reason).

I have metal drops on the plates from the steel I'm quenching. Because they don't have foil on them they're a few thou thinner than the blade I'm quenching, so they don't hold the plates off the blade, but they do prevent the top plate from rocking on the blade, acting like stops. They keep the plates parallel.

My plates have a lot of thermal mass, but they still get fairly warm to the touch. As they warm, the heat transfer out of the blade is lowered. I don't know where the line is that you would no longer achieve an adequate quench. It would depend on the blade steel too, but at some point you would need to let your plates cool. quenching only 5 at a time, I will never find that point.
 
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