Singing the Praises of Commercial German Knife Steels

C

Cushing H.

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Ok ... ok .... dont yell at me - the title will make (some) sense if you read...

I recently made chef knife for my sister (9", S35VN, 62 RHC), and explained that I had used a steel and processed it to make a sharper knife that would stay sharper longer than her other knives (Henkel 4 star).

At about the same time I took possession of her previous knives and gave them a "tune up" (grind down the bolster, thin the bevels to ~0.006). She really liked the new knife I made for her, but she has been absolutely raving about the "rejuvenated" german blades .... and is absolutely singing the praises of "that incredibly great german steel". (she did ask me before I made the knife if I would use steel as good as "german steel".

In looking at old threads, it appears the Henkel 4 star line is made from x45CrMoV15 .... which other people comment on as being pretty equivalent to 440a.

Totally ignoring the issues around process and geometry .... how do I go about trying to explain to her that the "german steel" stuff is marketing .... and that many of the german knives (hers included) are actually made from an "economy" version of steel?? Or .... do I even bother, and just continue making her the occasional knife and keep sharpening her other knives (when I can get my hands on them)??

She is not technical .... so discussion about fractional percentages of carbon or vanadium or chromium (and the like), much less discussion around eutectoid, martensite, austenite, etc, would just not make much sense to her....... I would like to *try* to not have her get really upset with me.....
 
Smile and nod your head. She likes it.

On another note I have a Old Hickory knife set that has been with me for 30 years and the knives perform great and I reach for them even more then my custom kitchen blades.

So if it works, it works
 
I’ve seen the old hickory line, but never handled one … what is it about them that has you reaching for them?

And yeah, I think you are right about my sister.., just smile and nod…
 
I was just gonna say smile and nod and then scrolled down and there was Adam saying it.
 
My wife is the same way. She’s absolutely loves her Rada Cutlery kitchen knives and refuses to upgrade. I just touch her edges up on occasion and let bygones be bygones.
 
What I have found is that almost any knife steel will cut well if properly sharpened and the geometry is right. The rub is how long they stay sharp.

I have a chef who loves his Heckels. He gives them to me every few weeks to resharpen because he says they have never been as sharp as when I am done with them. They are slowly getting smaller and smaller. One of his small chef blades is getting close to being a boner blade.
On the other hand he has a S35VN santoku I made him the lasts months between sharpening. It is no sharper that the Henkels, but the edge lasts longer.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
What I have found is that almost any knife steel will cut well if properly sharpened and the geometry is right. The rub is how long they stay sharp.

I have a chef who loves his Heckels. He gives them to me every few weeks to resharpen because he says they have never been as sharp as when I am done with them. They are slowly getting smaller and smaller. One of his small chef blades is getting close to being a boner blade.
On the other hand he has a S35VN santoku I made him the lasts months between sharpening. It is no sharper that the Henkels, but the edge lasts longer.
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Yeah .. i get it. Ihave some older knives that i frequently reach for ... just because. Just because i had always used it for a certain task (like taking the pit out of an avocado, or shredding a big head of lettuce, or opening a hard skinned squash, or quartering a dense head of cabbage...), or because of the historical background of the knife ... and one just because it was my grandmothers.

In this case (the german steel thing) i am just taking note of, and shaking my head at, the clear effectiveness of marketing campaigns...

Stacy, along your comment ... i have recently considered getting my hands on an old Sabatier "carbon" blank, and working it up with "current" geometry and heat treat just to see how it performs. Might be interesting...
 
there aren't really many reasons to buy or make custom knives. If you do know what those reasons are, you'll understand them and perceive them as good. If you do not, chances are you never will, in which case the reasons will remain imperceptible, regardless of how hard one tries to explain them.
 
Lorien said:
there aren't really many reasons to buy or make custom knives. If you do know what those reasons are, you'll understand them and perceive them as good. If you do not, chances are you never will, in which case the reasons will remain imperceptible, regardless of how hard one tries to explain them.
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That is so true - just like riding a motorcycle for basic transportation. If you don't understand, don't bother asking because you'll never really understand the joy of riding..... in rain, cold, hot... it just doesn't make sense at all. BUT - I did it for most of 60 years.
 
Ken H> said:
That is so true - just like riding a motorcycle for basic transportation. If you don't understand, don't bother asking because you'll never really understand the joy of riding..... in rain, cold, hot... it just doesn't make sense at all. BUT - I did it for most of 60 years.
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Earlier this summer i was driving my car uphill on a winding narrow CO canyon road (the headwaters of the arkansas river just west of canyon city). There was a motorcyclist behind me (beard, no helmet, no glasses). My windshield was dirty ... so without thinking i turned on my windshield washers and wipers. I glance in my rearview mirror to see this poor guy wiping off the front of his face. I immediately stopped the spray, and did my best to handwave apologies for my stupid move. He smiled and gave me a thumbs up. So i guess there *must* be some level of joy to make up for the stuff you, ahem... , run in to... :-)
 
Cushing H. said:
so without thinking i turned on my windshield washers and wipers.
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Grinning - that's not the worst thing to run into behind a car/truck. Just think about some fool chewing tobacco {g}. I did work with a guy one time who chewed, and said he never understood folks who spit the juice out - says that's the best part.... I don't think he ever had worms {g}
 
Cushing H. said:
Yeah .. i get it. Ihave some older knives that i frequently reach for ... just because. Just because i had always used it for a certain task (like taking the pit out of an avocado, or shredding a big head of lettuce, or opening a hard skinned squash, or quartering a dense head of cabbage...), or because of the historical background of the knife ... and one just because it was my grandmothers.

In this case (the german steel thing) i am just taking note of, and shaking my head at, the clear effectiveness of marketing campaigns...

Stacy, along your comment ... i have recently considered getting my hands on an old Sabatier "carbon" blank, and working it up with "current" geometry and heat treat just to see how it performs. Might be interesting...
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That marketing campaign has been going on for centuries. Many years ago I read a book (and I wish I could remember the title because I would like to reread it), that was a collection of war experiences throughout history. Experiences written by the little guy, not the General not the historian, but the dude in the trenches and often from both sides of a conflict. One I recall was from a Crusader knight and his brother in law. They were hard pressed in some particular action and a small group had fallen back and were defending this house. Bout to be over run the King of France rides up with his household knights and saves the day, scattering the opposition. I can remember how this guy described their relief when the King rode up with his "gleaming sword of the finest, German steel." Probably wasn't 440A, like your sister's knives but ya get the point.
 
Horsewright said:
That marketing campaign has been going on for centuries. Many years ago I read a book (and I wish I could remember the title because I would like to reread it), that was a collection of war experiences throughout history. Experiences written by the little guy, not the General not the historian, but the dude in the trenches and often from both sides of a conflict. One I recall was from a Crusader knight and his brother in law. They were hard pressed in some particular action and a small group had fallen back and were defending this house. Bout to be over run the King of France rides up with his household knights and saves the day, scattering the opposition. I can remember how this guy described their relief when the King rode up with his "gleaming sword of the finest, German steel." Probably wasn't 440A, like your sister's knives but ya get the point.
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Back in those days Germany produced a large quantity of the blades in the western world and it did mean something. I suppose mass manufacturing was considered to be a mark of quality back then.

C Cushing H. You didn't market your work right. You need to remember to not sharpen the Henkels as well so she can really see the difference. That's not totally a joke. You should be able to run a thinner edge and lower angles on the S35VN. People will notice that ultra thin edge after awhile.
 
Storm W said:
Back in those days Germany produced a large quantity of the blades in the western world and it did mean something. I suppose mass manufacturing was considered to be a mark of quality back then.

C Cushing H. You didn't market your work right. You need to remember to not sharpen the Henkels as well so she can really see the difference. That's not totally a joke. You should be able to run a thinner edge and lower angles on the S35VN. People will notice that ultra thin edge after awhile.
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Yeah, probably. Its just that for several years she kept complaining that she could not find anyone to "properly" sharpen her knives ... that they would not cut well when returned, and would dull almost immediately. I kept trying to explain to her that with her 20 year old knives all the "sharpeners" were doing was pushing the edge back into a thick bevel. She never really got it, so when i got a chance to get my hands on a few of her knives and "show" her the difference, i did. Case of shooting ones self in the foot i guess... :-)
 
Cushing H. said:
Yeah, probably. Its just that for several years she kept complaining that she could not find anyone to "properly" sharpen her knives ... that they would not cut well when returned, and would dull almost immediately. I kept trying to explain to her that with her 20 year old knives all the "sharpeners" were doing was pushing the edge back into a thick bevel. She never really got it, so when i got a chance to get my hands on a few of her knives and "show" her the difference, i did. Case of shooting ones self in the foot i guess... :)
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You fixed them to good. Most of the places or people who sharpen knives really don't know how. I find it kinda interesting how much more complicated people have made sharpening than what is required. I remember I was following the road cutting test that Ankerson Ankerson was doing and when he switched to 400 grit. I really started to doubt he knew what he was talking about but I felt I had to give it a try. I was pretty shocked when it worked. Now if my knives don't shave they are dull and nothing takes more than 2 minutes to sharpen.

Give it some time and the edges on those German steel knives will roll right on over and they always do and she will love your knife. I have given friends carbon steel knives and when I would ask about them a week or two later they would tell me they were alright but they really didn't like how they could rust and didn't seem to like the knife much less be impressed. 6 months or a year later and it's their favorite knife and they tell me that they don't hardly use their other knives anymore. Give her some time and I bet it will be the same with yours.
 
weo said:
...once again, you mean. (although I'm sure you were thinking that ;) )
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Lol. Yeah ... dont ask me if i still remember the "big mac jingle" from the early 70's. One of the most effective ads i have ever seen...
 
Cushing H. said:
Lol. Yeah ... dont ask me if i still remember the "big mac jingle" from the early 70's. One of the most effective ads i have ever seen...
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You mean "Two all beef patties, lettuce, cheese, onions, special sauce all on a sesame seed bun"?
 
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