Single or Double...?

Jerry Hossom

Jerry Hossom

Joined
Aug 1, 1999
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Edge, that is...

Most military issued knives (excluding bayonets) are single edged. In many instances, a second edge requires diminishing the cutting efficiency of the primary edge to make room for it, narrowing it without weakening the blade overall. Is the secondary edge necessary? Why?
 
Many people think that you need a double edged knife in order to "cut both ways." That is simply handled by wrist/palm rotation to re-orient a single edged knife in combat. And, it is not something "thinks about" after some time in handling the knife.

The classic example of this would be with a horizontal, forehand cut that and you wish to return on the same plane of movement, the same angle, but return with a backhand cut.

Since a Clip or Spear - point Bowie with the false edge sharpened is technically a, "double edged" knife, I'll address that first...

If one is going to be Backcutting, ala' James Keating, one would want to have the ability to do that with the large knife in forward grip.

Not only is the Backcut deceptive and effective, it is particularly vicious. Amazing what the wrist can do in terms of speed and power with that sharpened, secondary edge.

If one is not going to be fighting in that manner, I don't see a whole lot of "need" for a sharpened secondary edge. If the knife is rather pointy, it is going in...

Where the double edged knife, in my opinion, shines, is in reverse grip.

The reason for that lies in the various methods that circle around the reverse grip methods...

In some Filipino-based knife methods, you will see the knife in reverse grip turned edge in[/i] if it is a single edged knife.

The reason for that is simple. They [We, I...] seek to cut on first contact.

With a single edged knife, if you hook an incoming limb, the head or a leg, or if the attacker attempts to clear your blade on the high line by blocking or otherwise obstructing your knife, you can hook and tear with the edge in.

You can spiral cut their wrist, perhaps the neck as you spin them into the ground, compression.

So, alot of people say, "Well, I want my steel's edge facing them so they have to get through it..." Well, that's all fine and good if you fight that way with a single edged knife...I don't think it is nearly as effective as a meet and a hook to remove and damage simultaneously...

With the double edged knife in reverse grip, you get the best of both worlds and it just goes to show how some people [myself included] think that edge in hooking/cutting is much more powerful than simply slashing in reverse grip with the edge out. Alot of people have made the choice they would lose the ability to slash outwards in reverse grip for having the ability to cut on first contact when the limb has been met/intercepted.

But that's why the double edge shines in reverse grip, to me.
 
It is my understand that the reason Fairbairn and Sykes chose the double edged dagger for their edged-weapon was because it left only a small stab wound on the body that was hard to find quickly. Its primary purpose was killing, so the loss of cutting ability wasn't a concern. Also, F/Ss' methods were mainly to get in close and eliminate the enemy with a lethal stab.

During the middle ages daggers and stilettos were used to get between the gaps in armor and deliver lethal stabs. In today's military the soldiers are wearing more and more gear that could interfere with a knife attack. For instance, LBE/LBV that carries firearm magazines carried accross the chest, flack jackets/bullet proof vest with high collars, etc. So there may be more need in the future for a knife that can deliver a narrow, pinpoint stab.

But for most soldiers, I would think that a single edged knife would be most useful since it would be mainly used for utility. Basically it boils down to how the knife will be used, along with the wants/likes of the individual.

Mr. Rearic brought up a good point about double edged reverse grip. For that, I would want a wide blade to give me as much cutting ability for each edge as possible. The Cold Steel daggers come to mind.

Regards,
David
 
As is the aim in the bullet, penetration of the major organs to induce rapid blood loss is the goal in the design of a knife made for stabbing with a double edge. The AF is a perfect example, as well as the Sykes variant, while a single edge isn't as brutally efficient, it will still work of course.

I think of it as the difference between hacking and stabbing. Both have been taken to the peak of efficiency, with for rapier and katana for example, it is a question of fighting style, culture, and the intended use.

Jerry, your knives are so light and sharp already a true stilleto with your grind would be an amazing thing to wield!
 
The most lethal thrust weapon is the three sided stilletto... it leaves a wound nearly impossible to close - even if they don't succomb at the time - they will shortly thereafter. (I have my machinist compadre making steel chopsticks of that design.)

Like Nathan Bedford Forrest said - "no man kills me and lives."

No matter where or what you stab someone with - bury it in them deep as you can and jack it around like a stickshift.

Thats my warm fuzzy thought for the day:D
 
The Blackjack Knives BLACKMOORE DIRK, if I am recalling the name accurately, was perhaps the finest production stiletto made in modern times.

A Pat Crawford design, as I recall.

Three-sided and came in two different sizes.

Jim is correct. The three-sided stiletto design is simply devestating and very, very strong construction wise.
 
Yes, indeed, Blackjack made the Blackmoor Dirk and the larger brother of it, the Tartan Dirk.

They were based, by my eye...on The Assassin by Mr. Crawford.

I think what James was referring to was more along the lines of a triangular poniard, the difference being, the type(s) I think James is referring to would have equal sides. These were present on some knuckle knives in both World Wars, etc., as well as SOE/OSS Sleeve Daggers...and various SOE/OSS "Nails."

The Blackmoor Dirk had a concave flat that took up one side entirely. The other side looked like a conventional "dagger" blade, double edged. When you rolled it over to the "flat," there was a bead blasted impression for the thumb to hold it in more of a foil grip, the thumb being on the flat...

I had two Blackmoor Dirks over the years and while they were indeed wicked thrusters...they were piss-poor slashers. I had two at various times, mint in box, they would not cut for crap.

As a thrusting weapon, however, it was a nasty piece to be sure.
 
Originally posted by Don Rearic
I think what James was referring to was more along the lines of a triangular poniard, the difference being, the type(s) I think James is referring to would have equal sides. These were present on some knuckle knives in both World Wars, etc., as well as SOE/OSS Sleeve Daggers...and various SOE/OSS "Nails."
Click to expand...
Exactly.

I would like to see pictures of the Blackmoor Dirks.
 
I'll have to get an old issue of...guess what? Haha! Fighting Knives Magazine. Scan it and send it to you unless someone reading this has one they can post a pic of. I don't have them anymore but I could probably get one NIB if you wanted one. They were rather rude and that was actually one of the better knives, in my opinion, Blackjack ever made.
 
I make stilettos, but they're not great cutters. Certainly they will slash, but the edge geometry at the front has too little belly to make for efficient cutting through tough materials. When I designed my Retribution Combat knife, I did so with an eye to as many uses as I could imagine for such a knife, including recognition that it will do mundane chores a lot more often than it will be used for tactical purposes.

What I came up with required some special grinding to get everything I wanted. The knife you see here is ground with small grinding wheels (2" on the top and 5" on the bottom) so that fully sharpenable edges could be developed in a fairly narrow knife (1-1/4" max). While the primary edge is sufficient for slicing through most anything, I also wanted to retain thick steel (3/16") for most of the blade's 7" length, and have done so to within 2" of the point. Point on, the blade looks like a 4-pointed star, and blade geometry is sufficiently pointy for fast and efficient penetration. The top edge is fully sharpened. Knife weighs just over 9 oz. Balance is at the forefinger.
 
Seems like in a lot of ways it's hard to beat the REKAT Hobbit Warrior (based off of the old Al Mar Warrior) design. The handle is secure and comfortable in forward and reverse grip, while the curve of the blade results in good slashing capability. The teeth on the back of the blade are easily sufficient to lock someone's limb up in a reverse grip trap, and tear the crap out of it if you choose to, or if they try to get out of it...plus I understand that because these teeth are designed to rip rather than cut they do not make the blade "double-edged" with the attendant legalities. Hmm...kinda wish I hadn't sold mine now.
 
The use of a secondary edge on a knife made for the battlefield is more a question of utility than fighting.
It is very useful to have a primary and secondary cutting edge. Say one really sharp and one really strong. That is the reason you will see a lot of blades with a seemingly blunt false edge. It can be used for more ‘axe like’ cutting without effecting your primary cutting edge.

To me, the deadliness of a blade is determined not by how hard the wound is to close (they should already be long dead by the time a doctor is on the scene), but by the size of the wound channel itself. I would rather stab using a six inch blade with an inch and a half of width, than a twelve inch blade with an inch of width.
Alternately, if you are after a triangular channel. You can look for a blade that has been ground like I> rather than <>.

J Sass,
Thanks for the warm fuzzy.


Mick




RLTW
 
Most military issued knives (excluding bayonets) are single edged
Click to expand...

I just wanted to add that the vast majority of bayonets have also been single edged. Adding a second bevel tends to remove too much material and weaken the blade.

n2s

BTW, Jerry that's another great looking knife.
 
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