Six Knives and a Two by Four

Thanks for the generous offer Cliff, but I think I’ll pass. The handles on the square tip Martindale looks like it’s the same shape as the CS machete handles, which I didn’t much like. I would rather see how someone else likes them.




- Frank
 
Minuteman: I'm brand new to the forum and when I read your test I thought I should respond with an experience I had just last week. About a year ago I purchased an Ontario Survival Bowie. I gave it a good sharpening on a large DMT hone and finished it off with ceramic sticks. Until now its primary use has been light general trimming mixed with some larger limb removal up to about 4" in diameter. It has performed well. But last week I cut up a mule deer spike (primarily using a Cold Steel Master Hunter and a Knives of Alaska Caper but that's another story). I had the deer hanging up and seperated the hams last and for some reason I decided to use the Ontario Survival Bowie to chop the leg apart at the knee joint. Big mistake. I took several substantial blows at the joint and some of the blows landed on the bone just above the joint. I was shocked and dismayed to find a very significant chip knocked out of the blade and the edge baddly rolled over. I spent a lot of time trying to, at least, repair some of the damage and while it is still usable as a chopper it looks ugly. I know bone chopping is not appropriate use for the knife but should this have happened?

Thanks for listening.
 
one_half_wuff :

... should this have happened?
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With a quality heat treatment, no. Assuming of course the edge angle is 15+ degrees per side. Chopping bones is not beyond the scope of large heavy knives like that one when they are made with quality materials and methods.

-Cliff
 
One_half_wuff, you might try reading this thread by Cliff called Bone Cutting : Caribou legs:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=249783

Cliff, as I recall the BK9 performed amazingly well on this task. The same knife, however, if I remember correctly, also proved to be overly brittle though, snapping when you attempted a flex test.

One_half_wuff, you might also try reading this thread called When "Good" Knives Break:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=265390

We are not unfamiliar with this type of failure on Ontario products. Other brands have also had this same type of problem come up from time to time as well. I think the two most likely causes are (1) it cracked during quench and was broken when you bought it or (2) it was over hardened.

On the other side if the coin, if you buy a knife that is too soft to break, it probably will dull and/or roll pretty quickly on bone. Bone is very tough stuff. The edge of the coin -- a knife that is both tough and will hold an edge -- is harder to find and will probably cost considerably more than your Ontario Survival Bowie.

The safest bet is to carry a small saw for cutting bone. When using a knife or axe, in a pinch, it may well pay to take your time and not try to blast through too quickly. The harder you strike, the higher the stresses will be in the steel.
 
Minuteman :

When using a knife or axe, in a pinch ...
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If you have to use a knife which you know is too brittle or too soft, you can minimize the damage by using a baton to chisel the knife through the bone. This keeps the force straight against the edge greatly reducing lateral snaps which are the main cause of damage.

-Cliff
 
One_half_wuff, you do raise and interesting question here, and one that may be worthy of its own thread, and that is: What is an appropriate expection for the performance capability of a production "survival" blade?

The complete American Bladesmith Society Master test can be found here:

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ABS_MSTest.htm

but to sum it up concisely, a 10 inch long blade must be able to: (1) sever a one inch free hanging sisal or manila rope once, (2) chop through a standard 2x4 (soft wood) twice, (3) have no visible damage on the edge afterward, (4) shave hair afterward, and (5) be bent 90 degrees without breaking.

The knives that pass this test are probably the best available. Despite all our technology and desire NOONE makes a knife that a full grown man can swing with all his might at knots or hardwood without doing some damage.

This thread started out with my search for production knives that could pass half the ABS chopping test (cut through a 2x4 once and still shave). As you've seen many can not.

If you've watched the Cold Steel Proof video you've seen production knives with some very good steel in them that are only able to bend 60% or so without breaking (this is not important because we all wish we could bend our knives 90%, when in fact we can only bend them 60% -- it is a measure of the brittleness of the steel in a hardened condition).

I don't know what the right anwer is, but if a production "survival" knife had the geometry, balance, and cutting performance I was interested in and could: (1) cut through a 2x4 once without visible edge damage, (2) shave hair readily afterward, (3) be bent to 60% without failing, (4) withstand 2000 hours of continuous handling and use with only cosmetic wear to all materials and finishes, and (5) be purchased for under $150.00, it would certainly meet my standards for that price range.

If Cold Steel would produce a Carbon V Trailmaster with a full tang and canvas Micarta handle held on with three sets of removable fasteners (shaped just like the kraton ones would be fine), and if they'd put it in one of the sheaths like the Becker line comes in, I bet they could sell it for $150.00. If they did, I believe they'd have the market leader by a mile.
 
It would be nice if Cold Steel ditched the rubber handles. I personally have very little confidence in any “survival” knife with a slip-on rubber handle held by the thong hole liner. If Becker can sell the BK9 with scales that bolt on to a full tang (along with a better sheath) for half the price of the Trailmaster, I would think that Cold Steel could afford to get rid of the rubber grips. If not removable scales, I would much rather have an injection molded handle than any slip-on rubber handle.





- Frank
 
Couldn't agree more Frank. And you're right, Becker pulls this all together for much less than $150.00.

Analysis has shown little difference in the composition of Carbon V and 0170-6C, so there's no big cost delta there. Becker obviously buys the Cordura sheaths very inexpensively, so no problem there. The Becker grips are molded and extremely cheap to produce, so for the higher price Cold Steel could easily afford to give us canvas Micarta.

I've said this before, but I think Cold Steel has one of the greatest, most versatile designs going with the Trailmaster. For me, they ruin the whole thing though by going with a handle material that is just slightly more durable than sharp cheddar.

Kraton works out quite well on defensive knives that are used rarely and where grip adhesion and cushioning are critical. But for a knife that you are going to swing hard for very long, it is not the right choice. Those who have tried this have had the handle come loose or tear right down to the tang or, even when great care was exercised, had the checkering wear away to a slick smooth finish.

Cold Steel is obviously heavily bought into the whole checkered kraton thing for understandable reasons. It provides a slick professional look on a new knife, it seems very "tactical" at first blush, and they can be molded by the thousands for pennies a piece. Regardless, I say get rid of them on the Trailmaster and put something on there that will last -- or make them easy to change out and make spares available to the public for a low price.

Of course, sometimes making a design change like this signals to your customers that there may have been something wrong with the original concept. Otherwise, why did you need to change it? And after selling tons of these and telling everyone who would listen it is the greatest knife design the world has ever known, they may have painted themselves into a corner. On top of that if they are indeed selling tons of them, then I'm sure they see no reason to change anyway.
 
I can sort of understand why Cold Steel would use slip-on rubber handles after using them for so long. What I don’t understand why so many other companies are following Cold Steel’s lead with the slip-on rubber handles.


Personally, I don’t trust the little brass thong hole liner to keep the grips from slipping off when chopping. I also don’t like the fact that fluids can seep in behind the handles with no way to clean them out. I think that a knife worth carrying into the woods should have something better than slip-on rubber handles.





- Frank
 
Roger that, Frank.

And I would add, I think that Becker sets the industry standard in this instance. They use a full tang with scales that don't absorb liquids, they make them easy to remove, and they sell easy to get replacement scales and hardware for a low price.

All hard use knives should be done that way. After all, what handle material would ever last as long as the steel blade under significant use? I think the idea of a lifetime handle doesn't wash. Also, knives that come near food (at least my food) need to be able to be cleaned well.

As far as the Beckers go, though, I just don't have an appreciation for the spatula shaped blades that are so popluar now -- I like a point on the front! Also, Cliff got a hold of a BK9 that was about as brittle as a piece of chalk compared to the 60 degree bend a Trailmaster is designed to take.

My main problem here is this: I really like the blade geometry on the Trailmaster. I have chopped, cut, and sliced with my Trailmaster and I like it. So Lynn, if you're out there, full tang and canvas Micarta handle scales please -- no kraton. A little re-tooling, a couple new subcontracts, and there you have it: Trailmaster II. You will sell a million of them, for sure. In fact I'll buy 2, so you only have 999,998 to go.
 
Minuteman, I wouldn’t worry about 0170-6C being brittle compared to Carbon V. ;) BTW, the Becker Bowie seems to have held up pretty well to Cliff’s bone chopping in the thread that you linked to above (I must have missed the part where it crumbled like chalk, or was that in another thread?).


Personally, I would prefer a tougher steel than 1095, Carbon V/0170-6C, 52100 or A2 and the like, for a chopping or survival type knife. CPM-3V would be about ideal (except for higher cost), combining very high edge holding (about the same as D2) with high toughness (about double that of A2 or 4 times that of D2). A lower cost alternative would be something like L6 (although L6 has a lot less wear resistance).


The removable handles are great for the reasons that you stated, but I don’t mind molded on handles. Molded handles seal out fluids, are very durable (near indestructible in normal use) and are cheap to make.






- Frank
 
frank k :

What I don t understand why so many other companies are following Cold Steel s lead with the slip-on rubber handles.
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It is cheap I would assume.

Concerning the Becker breaking, this was under a very low flex when prying, similar low ductility was seen with the Patrol machete.

In regards to the bone chopping, it was (and still it) hyped by makers as being extreme, as with many such tests they are made out to be far more than they are to allow promotion of their product.

After doing a lot of bone chopping on various types of bones with knives of all manner of steels and geometries I am far less impressed with it that I used to be, some examples of bone cutting that stand out :

1) a Mora 2000 (ten degree edge, rather soft stainless), cutting up a 5 lbs salmon into steaks with no visible damage to the edge after heavy cuts through the spine

2) deerhunters (10-12 degree edges of brittle steels) cutting/chopping/stabing into spine, skull and flipper bones of a seal with no damage

3) a 66 HRC M2 knife [Pinoy knife] (~20 degree edge) being batoned through 8 lbs chicken legs with no visible damage, then through a thick bone in a piece of salt meat (which required the GB Wildlife hatchet as a baton)

4) a *mild* steel knife (yes mild unhardened steel) [12 degree edge] being used to cut small (3 lbs) chicken bones

So quite frankly I don't think this is a very high standard for toughness, certainly no where near it is made out to be by most using it to promote their knives.

-Cliff
 
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