-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Skookum bush tool for V Notching
- Thread starter Legnef
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2006
- Messages
- 1,659
My opinions are generally not the most popular, but I would like to throw it out there anyway for your consideration.
I am not quite sure that you are making a direct thickness comparison. I have never held a skookum, nor do I know what angle that Rod grinds those at. But, my hunch is that the mora and the skookum have a different grind angle on them. If so, that could make a HUGE difference in feel, and go beyond more than a thickness comparison.
I agree and disagree with this because "more durable" is a very broad statement. If you mean the edge is more durable, well all bets are off. It doesn't matter if the spine is 1/16" thick or 1" thick. The final thickness the edge was ground to, and the angle of the secondary (in the case of a flat ground knife) is going to determine its "durability." If you are talking scandi, then grind angle will make a difference. A 3/32" scandi ground at 15 degrees per side will be more durable than a 5/32" one ground at 10 degrees per side. Geometry is king! This is of course assuming that steel, heat treat and tempering are the same, and we are comparing geometry. Convex is a harder animal to pin down because it is hard to define a "curve" between two points. More on that later.
What thickness does add to batoning is a lateral stiffness (side to side). So, if you get into knotty, twisty wood than I guess you can call the knife more "durable." However, a thinner knife, with good heat treat will flex and bend a bit and have absolutely no issues. The stuff is much tougher than folks generally give it credit for because they see some flexing, and they get worried. At least that is my opinion.
I have used a lot of knives of various lengths and thickness for batoning over the years and have learned the following things.
- I can tell by looking at wood generally how it will baton/split. If it is nice stuff to baton, I would prefer the thinner knife.
- If wood is gnarly, twisty and knotty, I know it is going to be a b@!ch no matter what knife I use. I have even taken this to the point of having to extract knives with a chainsaw. All in the name of testing
In those cases I would prefer a thicker knife. However, I have also learned a couple things from that. 1) If I am leisure camping, I will spend much longer on that type of wood that good wood. So, I simply avoid it. If I were in a survival situation I would be able to have a bit of a clue what I was up against. My first preference would be to pass on it, and look for "easier prey." Afterall, survival is about energy conservation. If there were no other wood around, I would really have to evaluate whether the energy being put into the wood is worth what I would get out. You might well come to the conclusion that you are better off not doing it! Just depends. Knot to mention (pun intended) that you might risk getting your knife stuck, or at the very least having a very dangerous extracting activity ahead of you (done that too).
I guess what I am saying is that I think "thick" knives give people a comfort level that may be justified in trying stuff, and playing with it, or even just on a physiological level. But not so justified in the real world, especially when couple with good woodsman skills and experience.
Now, I realize there are some folks that do stuff at extreme temperatures (and I do too) that swear by thicker stock in their knives, and I agree with that. But, to do that sort of work, thicker stock is generally coupled with thicker edge geometry, different tempering, and you start getting into designing for specific scenarios. Once you start taking away cutting ability (which is what a knife was meant for) I start calling that thing a "tool" (even though it walks, talks and smells like a knife )
A good example of a thin knife to baton with is Koyote's submission to the Camp Knife Challenge. I loved that thing, and was bummed to give it back. Koyote let me keep that one an extra week or so, and I put that long, 3/32" knife through a lot of wood. It was a real pleasure to use.
Again, I am not arguing with anyone or saying don't have your personal preference (because that is what it largely comes down to). Just trying to give an alternate viewpoint for you think on
Whenever folks start comparing convex knives to something, it is a difficult conversation. As mentioned earlier, two points define a line, but you can draw an infinite number of curves between those same two points Meaning I could give you 100 different convex knives, and they could all feel different.
If there is one thing I have learned in grinding axes and making knives is that a small change in geometry can make a huge change in performance. Easy to read and shake your head and agree, but super hard to really realize until you start playing with it.
B
I am not quite sure that you are making a direct thickness comparison. I have never held a skookum, nor do I know what angle that Rod grinds those at. But, my hunch is that the mora and the skookum have a different grind angle on them. If so, that could make a HUGE difference in feel, and go beyond more than a thickness comparison.
I agree and disagree with this because "more durable" is a very broad statement. If you mean the edge is more durable, well all bets are off. It doesn't matter if the spine is 1/16" thick or 1" thick. The final thickness the edge was ground to, and the angle of the secondary (in the case of a flat ground knife) is going to determine its "durability." If you are talking scandi, then grind angle will make a difference. A 3/32" scandi ground at 15 degrees per side will be more durable than a 5/32" one ground at 10 degrees per side. Geometry is king! This is of course assuming that steel, heat treat and tempering are the same, and we are comparing geometry. Convex is a harder animal to pin down because it is hard to define a "curve" between two points. More on that later.
What thickness does add to batoning is a lateral stiffness (side to side). So, if you get into knotty, twisty wood than I guess you can call the knife more "durable." However, a thinner knife, with good heat treat will flex and bend a bit and have absolutely no issues. The stuff is much tougher than folks generally give it credit for because they see some flexing, and they get worried. At least that is my opinion.
I have used a lot of knives of various lengths and thickness for batoning over the years and have learned the following things.
- I can tell by looking at wood generally how it will baton/split. If it is nice stuff to baton, I would prefer the thinner knife.
- If wood is gnarly, twisty and knotty, I know it is going to be a b@!ch no matter what knife I use. I have even taken this to the point of having to extract knives with a chainsaw. All in the name of testing
In those cases I would prefer a thicker knife. However, I have also learned a couple things from that. 1) If I am leisure camping, I will spend much longer on that type of wood that good wood. So, I simply avoid it. If I were in a survival situation I would be able to have a bit of a clue what I was up against. My first preference would be to pass on it, and look for "easier prey." Afterall, survival is about energy conservation. If there were no other wood around, I would really have to evaluate whether the energy being put into the wood is worth what I would get out. You might well come to the conclusion that you are better off not doing it! Just depends. Knot to mention (pun intended) that you might risk getting your knife stuck, or at the very least having a very dangerous extracting activity ahead of you (done that too).I guess what I am saying is that I think "thick" knives give people a comfort level that may be justified in trying stuff, and playing with it, or even just on a physiological level. But not so justified in the real world, especially when couple with good woodsman skills and experience.
Now, I realize there are some folks that do stuff at extreme temperatures (and I do too) that swear by thicker stock in their knives, and I agree with that. But, to do that sort of work, thicker stock is generally coupled with thicker edge geometry, different tempering, and you start getting into designing for specific scenarios. Once you start taking away cutting ability (which is what a knife was meant for) I start calling that thing a "tool" (even though it walks, talks and smells like a knife
)A good example of a thin knife to baton with is Koyote's submission to the Camp Knife Challenge. I loved that thing, and was bummed to give it back. Koyote let me keep that one an extra week or so, and I put that long, 3/32" knife through a lot of wood. It was a real pleasure to use.
Again, I am not arguing with anyone or saying don't have your personal preference (because that is what it largely comes down to). Just trying to give an alternate viewpoint for you think on
Good post HD. I agree with all points. My only problem with Bark River knives is, the two I started with are rather thick. Now I have to find another one with a thinner blade.Darn the luck.
Whenever folks start comparing convex knives to something, it is a difficult conversation. As mentioned earlier, two points define a line, but you can draw an infinite number of curves between those same two points
Meaning I could give you 100 different convex knives, and they could all feel different.If there is one thing I have learned in grinding axes and making knives is that a small change in geometry can make a huge change in performance. Easy to read and shake your head and agree, but super hard to really realize until you start playing with it.
B
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2008
- Messages
- 3,400
I would think that unless you are notching a stack of fire boards on a daily basis, it is not really much of an issue. 
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2005
- Messages
- 9,680
+3 on Brians post.
It's all about the "give and take". For what "I" need in a knife, a thicker spine is required. This has been proven to me time and again through my own personal experience. I have adapted my geometry to suit. I may not be able to slice like a well made thinner knife but I'm okay with that. Thicker knives can hold their own if done right.
You are always going to have arguements from both sides of the fence. Don't worry so much about what other folks think is "proper"... Use what works for you... just don't be afraid to experiment.
Rick
It's all about the "give and take". For what "I" need in a knife, a thicker spine is required. This has been proven to me time and again through my own personal experience. I have adapted my geometry to suit. I may not be able to slice like a well made thinner knife but I'm okay with that. Thicker knives can hold their own if done right.
You are always going to have arguements from both sides of the fence. Don't worry so much about what other folks think is "proper"... Use what works for you... just don't be afraid to experiment.
Rick
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2006
- Messages
- 1,659
I really think that is key Rick. You know yourself and the things you like to do. Then you go do it
Experience tells all :thumbup:Boy, did we take this a long way off of doing notches, or what? I guess it all goes together though
B
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2005
- Messages
- 9,680
Buenos notches!
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2002
- Messages
- 191
That one is made by Del Stubbs. I ordered it from http://www.pinewoodforge.com/ Another great tool, always in the pack with me.
-Emile