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- Aug 3, 2000
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Im looking at getting a new 3-season mummy bag and I wanted to get opinions on whether to go with down or synthetic.
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Sleeping Bsgs, Down vs Synthetic
- Thread starter Josh Wilson
- Start date
As far as I know, down is lighter, smaller, very well-insulating but more expensive and far less insulating when wet. Synthetics are usually bulkier, less expensive and better insulators when wet. Still, mountain expeditions seem to prefer down as much as I understood.
Check out the upcoming (March) issue of Backpacker magazine for their annual monster gear listing (backpacks, sleeping bags, tents, boots, water purification systems, stoves).
I would vote for a synthetic bag for my use. For the wet insulation and price factor mainly.
HM
Check out the upcoming (March) issue of Backpacker magazine for their annual monster gear listing (backpacks, sleeping bags, tents, boots, water purification systems, stoves).
I would vote for a synthetic bag for my use. For the wet insulation and price factor mainly.
HM
Try clicking HERE.
IMHO, Wiggy bags are the best there is, period. Even better than our current issue ones.
Dan
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Go Get 'em Gear
IMHO, Wiggy bags are the best there is, period. Even better than our current issue ones.
Dan
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Go Get 'em Gear
I have a feathered friends down bag and I have an Integral Designs synthetic primaloft bag with a primaloft liner for extra warmth.
Nothing comes close to down for warmth, lightness and compressibilty. I think it lasts longer too, if you take proper care of it. Primaloft, IMO, comes closest, but there is still a huge difference.
But down is utterly useless if it gets wet. It will not insulate at all, it gets heavier than hell and it is almost impossible to dry in the field, under the usual adverse conditions, especially if it has been made wet by salt water.
Nonetheless, down seems to be the choice in the Arctic, even on kayaking trips. You just have to be very, very careful withit. Double drybags etc. Also, a waterresistent shell like dryloft is a good idea and a good liner or vapour barrier to prevent wetting from condensation and perspiration are pretty important - because once it's wet, you're in trouble.
If it isn't too cold where you're going, or if space isn't at a premium, a synthetic is fine.
Nothing comes close to down for warmth, lightness and compressibilty. I think it lasts longer too, if you take proper care of it. Primaloft, IMO, comes closest, but there is still a huge difference.
But down is utterly useless if it gets wet. It will not insulate at all, it gets heavier than hell and it is almost impossible to dry in the field, under the usual adverse conditions, especially if it has been made wet by salt water.
Nonetheless, down seems to be the choice in the Arctic, even on kayaking trips. You just have to be very, very careful withit. Double drybags etc. Also, a waterresistent shell like dryloft is a good idea and a good liner or vapour barrier to prevent wetting from condensation and perspiration are pretty important - because once it's wet, you're in trouble.
If it isn't too cold where you're going, or if space isn't at a premium, a synthetic is fine.
I use a down bag myself. My girlfriend bought herself a synthetic and just for fun one night we switched bags to see what we thought. I was pretty glad the next night to get back to MY bag, and I finally understood why she always complains about how cold camping is 
Yeah, you have to be careful with down bags. I carry mine in a waterproofed bag. Down bags MUST be taken out of the bag when you get back home and hung up. Otherwise they lose their loft and they're useless, so they do require more maintenance than synthetic bags, but IMHO they're well worth it.
Yeah, you have to be careful with down bags. I carry mine in a waterproofed bag. Down bags MUST be taken out of the bag when you get back home and hung up. Otherwise they lose their loft and they're useless, so they do require more maintenance than synthetic bags, but IMHO they're well worth it.
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2000
- Messages
- 860
I would go with synthetic. Down has alot of superior qualities - but seriously, I've never been on a camping trip where its rained and my bag hasn't got at least a little wet.
Synthetic bags are cheaper, and if you run into a serious storm, you'll be alot better off. Down is probably warmer and more compressable. I've had both, and I'll stick with my synthetic bag.
Of course, I'm not into the real serious camping - I tend to stay home when its 10 below out... Go for a good quality synthetic, and get a flannel liner if you're not warm enough.
-- Rob
Synthetic bags are cheaper, and if you run into a serious storm, you'll be alot better off. Down is probably warmer and more compressable. I've had both, and I'll stick with my synthetic bag.
Of course, I'm not into the real serious camping - I tend to stay home when its 10 below out... Go for a good quality synthetic, and get a flannel liner if you're not warm enough.
-- Rob
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2000
- Messages
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As a card-carrying Techno-weenie, I will wade in with my opinion. Thus far man has yet to create an artificial fiber that can equal Eider down. Goose down is amazing. Certain artificial fills like Quallowfill come close, though.
The best possible sleeping bags are made with high loft goose down, 700 Fill if possible. I'm thinking Marmot Mountain Works and some of the high end North Face bags. Most of not all those bags will be made with either GoreTex or other waterproof/breathable membranes so the 'doesn't insulate when wet' argument is largely moot.
A good three season bag doesn't have to have expensive down fill because it's only going to be rated to about 40 degrees or so.
Dave
The best possible sleeping bags are made with high loft goose down, 700 Fill if possible. I'm thinking Marmot Mountain Works and some of the high end North Face bags. Most of not all those bags will be made with either GoreTex or other waterproof/breathable membranes so the 'doesn't insulate when wet' argument is largely moot.
A good three season bag doesn't have to have expensive down fill because it's only going to be rated to about 40 degrees or so.
Dave
For a 3 season bag, I would go with a Wiggys synthetic. Not familiar with PrimaLoft but I know quallofil will lose it's loft in maybe 2-4 years. In fact, all synthetics will eventually lose a significant portion of their loft. But I've been in lots of places where rain and condensation can soak your bag. For instance, suppose you are canoeing in the late fall in the north country and you tip your canoe. For whatever reason, your bag gets soaked. And so do you. Your greatest danger at the moment is hypothermia. A synthetic bag will give you far more protection. You can wring it out quickly and it will still provide some insulation. It will also dry out much more quickly when wet than down. However, if you have faith in your packing abilities and in your tent to keep you dry under all conditions, then you can't beat down for lightness and warmth.
Down bags will retain their loft much, much longer. For a winter bag, I would choose down. And probably the best down bags out there (and most pricey) are made by Western Mountaineering. I've never read a bad thing about these bags but I've read lots of rave reviews.
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
Down bags will retain their loft much, much longer. For a winter bag, I would choose down. And probably the best down bags out there (and most pricey) are made by Western Mountaineering. I've never read a bad thing about these bags but I've read lots of rave reviews.
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
Further mixed info on the topic.
Look for a bag that is rated 5-10 F lower than the coldest temp you are likely to encounter. Some guidelines:
Temperature rating:
40 F for summer camping
20 F for moderate three-season use
0 F for winter camping
-30 F for arctic weather and snow camping.
Shell materials:
DryLoft, Gore-Tex, Sympatex: waterproof/breathable materials.
Microfiber: lighter, less expensive, more breathable, less water resistant than the above materials.
Ripstop: thickest, strongest, durable fabrics
Taffeta: less durable than ripstop but more supple.
Fills:
Down: lightest, warmest, most durable if kept dry and cared for. Dries slowly, bad insulator when wet.
Hollofil, HollofilII, Quallofil: performance is similar to other synthetics but bulkier and heavier. Typically in less expensive bags.
Lite Loft, MicroLoft, Primaloft, Primaloft 2, Thermolite Extreme: short-staple fibers that are closest in performance to down but lack durability. They pack lighter and smaller than other synthetics.
Polarguard, Polarguard HV, Polarguard 3D: long, continuous-filament fibers that are more durable but heavier and bulkier. Polarguard 3D is the best and most expensive in this group.
Polarguard Delta: newest version of Polarguard 3D with improved weight, loft and durability.
Proprietary synthetics: manufacturers own brands with varying quality.
(All based on Backpacker magazine.)
Hope it helps,
HM
Look for a bag that is rated 5-10 F lower than the coldest temp you are likely to encounter. Some guidelines:
Temperature rating:
40 F for summer camping
20 F for moderate three-season use
0 F for winter camping
-30 F for arctic weather and snow camping.
Shell materials:
DryLoft, Gore-Tex, Sympatex: waterproof/breathable materials.
Microfiber: lighter, less expensive, more breathable, less water resistant than the above materials.
Ripstop: thickest, strongest, durable fabrics
Taffeta: less durable than ripstop but more supple.
Fills:
Down: lightest, warmest, most durable if kept dry and cared for. Dries slowly, bad insulator when wet.
Hollofil, HollofilII, Quallofil: performance is similar to other synthetics but bulkier and heavier. Typically in less expensive bags.
Lite Loft, MicroLoft, Primaloft, Primaloft 2, Thermolite Extreme: short-staple fibers that are closest in performance to down but lack durability. They pack lighter and smaller than other synthetics.
Polarguard, Polarguard HV, Polarguard 3D: long, continuous-filament fibers that are more durable but heavier and bulkier. Polarguard 3D is the best and most expensive in this group.
Polarguard Delta: newest version of Polarguard 3D with improved weight, loft and durability.
Proprietary synthetics: manufacturers own brands with varying quality.
(All based on Backpacker magazine.)
Hope it helps,
HM
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2000
- Messages
- 10
Just a small point,a pertex liner will add warmth and keep the bag clean (so it is more efficient,and you do not have to risk damage by washing it).
A thermal liner will add a lot of warmth so you can buy a 3 season bag and make it nearly 4 by using a liner.A gore tex bivi bag on the outside has much the same effect.
Keep your options flexible....
A thermal liner will add a lot of warmth so you can buy a 3 season bag and make it nearly 4 by using a liner.A gore tex bivi bag on the outside has much the same effect.
Keep your options flexible....
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2000
- Messages
- 232
I took a look at the Wiggy's web page and I am qurious about the 'lamilite' insulation. How does it compare to the other synthetics?
Also Wiggys claims to be the biggest supplier of sleeping bags for the US military. Can any of you with military backgrounds back up this claim. I have heard the phrase, 'offical issue thingamajig of the US military commandoes' too often to believe it.
Also Wiggys claims to be the biggest supplier of sleeping bags for the US military. Can any of you with military backgrounds back up this claim. I have heard the phrase, 'offical issue thingamajig of the US military commandoes' too often to believe it.
I'm a down person all the way.
I had used a cheapo bag for a while, but where I would camp, almost anything would do.
I'm planning some trips that will require something a little more appropriate, so I sprang for a Western Mountaineering Sequoia with Super Dry Loft shell..
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/bagdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__PRODUCTID=WE2100
Granted, it was close to $500 (I had a 10% off coupon from a previous purchase), but for me it was worth every penny. It's a semi-rectangular bag for a little more room (at the cost of having to heat up more air). VERY poofy, comfy, and warm..rated 5 deg. F.
As a comparison, my buddy got a Polarguard 3D rated the same (not sure what brand), but after a chilly night, he was saying that he was a little cold and I was warm as could be.
I got the SDL shell to try and minimize the chance of the down getting wet...so far, water seems to roll off the shell without any absorption at all.. you'd probably have to submerge the thing to get it wet... (haven't had to wash it yet, so don't know for sure).
I wanted the semi-rect design for more room, and also so that it would mate nicely with another so my gf & I could zip up together (a nice feature if you have a gf). A left and a right bag zip up down the middle, so each of you have a poofy hood that's almost enough to use as a pillow.
So, love this bag...
If you're looking for some sort of mountaineering bag, Campmor has some really good deals on bags that are a nice bright orange (good thing for signaling if you're mountaineering and such), 750-800 fill down..
Here's the link:
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/commerce/command/CategoryDisplay?cgrfnbr=21767&cgmenbr=2 26
Hope this helps...
-ZZ
[This message has been edited by zerozappa (edited 02-04-2001).]
I had used a cheapo bag for a while, but where I would camp, almost anything would do.
I'm planning some trips that will require something a little more appropriate, so I sprang for a Western Mountaineering Sequoia with Super Dry Loft shell..
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/bagdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__PRODUCTID=WE2100
Granted, it was close to $500 (I had a 10% off coupon from a previous purchase), but for me it was worth every penny. It's a semi-rectangular bag for a little more room (at the cost of having to heat up more air). VERY poofy, comfy, and warm..rated 5 deg. F.
As a comparison, my buddy got a Polarguard 3D rated the same (not sure what brand), but after a chilly night, he was saying that he was a little cold and I was warm as could be.
I got the SDL shell to try and minimize the chance of the down getting wet...so far, water seems to roll off the shell without any absorption at all.. you'd probably have to submerge the thing to get it wet... (haven't had to wash it yet, so don't know for sure).
I wanted the semi-rect design for more room, and also so that it would mate nicely with another so my gf & I could zip up together (a nice feature if you have a gf). A left and a right bag zip up down the middle, so each of you have a poofy hood that's almost enough to use as a pillow.
So, love this bag...
If you're looking for some sort of mountaineering bag, Campmor has some really good deals on bags that are a nice bright orange (good thing for signaling if you're mountaineering and such), 750-800 fill down..
Here's the link:
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/commerce/command/CategoryDisplay?cgrfnbr=21767&cgmenbr=2 26
Hope this helps...
-ZZ
[This message has been edited by zerozappa (edited 02-04-2001).]
I'm going to chime in with a vote for synthetic here, again because of the getting wet thing. Down is overall better for a lot of reasons, but there are all kinds of situations where despite one's best effort your bag gets wet. I vote for a synthetic bag for the same reason I prefer wool to cotton for clothes, in perfect conditions you may not know the difference, or have to pack some extra weight, but in that one time out of 100 a synthetic bag might save your butt.
Todd (edgedance)
Todd (edgedance)
Wiggy hypes his bags pretty heavily and he also trashes other manufacturers so he's a controversial figure. He has his followers and his detractors. All I can say is that I have one of his lightweight bags and it's the best 3 season bag I've owned. I've had several conversations with Wiggy, once over the phone (when you call, you usually are talking to Wiggy himself), and through several emails. He's an interesting guy who's not afraid to say what he thinks. His warranty is outstanding but you will get the ocassional complaint that he will argue with you about whether your bag did or didn't lose loft over time. Like all things, ya pays yer money and takes yer chances. If you do an internet search, you will find lots of information on Wiggy's bags, including reviews pro and con.
My Wiggys lamilite bag wraps around my body and fills nooks and crannies better than any other synthetic bag I've ever owned.
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
I learned about Wiggy's from a SOLDIER OF FORTUNE magazine article (May 1999). They seemed to be pretty impressed with them so I took a chance and bought one, the 40 deg bag. I use it quite frequently in the woods and mountains of northeastern PA in below freezing weather. It works great.
SOF says that the USAF and Marines pack Wiggy bags into their ejection seat surivival kits. Also that Navy SEALS and Army SF troopers use them. The USCG uses Wiggy Hypothermia bags on their rescue boats.
Jerry Wiggy himself is originally from Brooklyn, NY. He has an attitude. Big deal. He puts out a good product.
Stay away from GoreTex bags. They don't work. BACKPACKER magazine panned GoreTex bags in their March 1998 issue.
I suggest you take a look at Wiggy's website and come to your own conclusion.
SOF says that the USAF and Marines pack Wiggy bags into their ejection seat surivival kits. Also that Navy SEALS and Army SF troopers use them. The USCG uses Wiggy Hypothermia bags on their rescue boats.
Jerry Wiggy himself is originally from Brooklyn, NY. He has an attitude. Big deal. He puts out a good product.
Stay away from GoreTex bags. They don't work. BACKPACKER magazine panned GoreTex bags in their March 1998 issue.
I suggest you take a look at Wiggy's website and come to your own conclusion.