Slinging as a means of protection and hunting.

[SkunkWerX]

Doc, you are correct about being well practiced at anything we do.

In terms of bow vs. sling, the "average guy" as kevin was speaking, at some point in his life (we hope) has used a bow, in one shape or form.
It is likely that folks who have actually "slung" a rock is but a very small number.

I was probably thinking more of myself, than anyone else. I'm no great hunter with a bow, but, I have shot them before, and I'd figure it out, at least quick enough not to starve. I can't say, even with practice, that I'll ever be able to take game with a sling.

Chris, your gig, you talking a 3 pronged gig, like if we took 3 large fishing hooks, bent them straighter?? i mean like the kind we use when we go ocea fishing, for tuna shark and such??? Do you think that might be what you are looking for?
And, are you meaning for fishing, or for spear throwing on land, against fur-bearin critters? (for survival purposes only, of course).

Ah, Treble Hook, thats it.
example--> http://www.barlowstackle.com/fishing-treble-hooks.html

 

[SkunkWerX]

As far as the average man goes, I know some of them perish outdoors, because they just don't have a clue, but there are many stories of guys breaking their cameras open and using the lenses to start fires or signal for help. Even stories of kids getting lost, making it a night or two and coming out dazed, but plenty alive.

Depending on the situation, many scenarios are survivable, and many are survivable by average guys. Now, the abosolute brainless guy, who has no mechanical inclination, has lived on 7th and Broadway his whole life, and has no wilderness left in his DNA, well, I don't want to be a total pessimist, but these people can get all the training in the world, and they may still be in big trouble.

I've never snared one single furry animal, but I know how to make a snare, a deadfall , and a few other "man eating" type of traps. I know how to identify animal trails, and such. I've spent enough time in the woods, and I know their basic habits. Point: Even though I am not an avid hunter, I think I'd catch something, sooner or later, at least before starving.

Deep down, in our DNA , there is a hunter-gatherer from the past.
Some people repress it and convince themselves they are beyond that, but, everything that has helped us survive this long, is embedded inside.
It was only a few generations ago that everyone was a survivalist.
No electricty, wood for heat, and many in rural areas fed themselves to a large extent.

You give the average guy a PSK and little bit of knowledge on what to do, and he'll get thru most situations. It's the extraordinary situations, like lost at sea, injured on the side of a mtn in winter, those kind of things, that really test one's fortitude and survival capabilities.

I liked that Kevin was exploring something, that maybe an average guy could try, not too complex, but would put some food in his mouth.

I was taught, and read even more recently, that snares and traps are really the things that give you the highest probability of snagging a decent meal.
My personal thinking is MORE is Better. More than one way to build a fire, more than one way to signal for help, more than one way to purify water, so, of course, I'm thinking that i wouldn't stop at snares, I'd also try the throwing stick, fishing, baseball sized rocks, and anything else I had learned to bring some food to my mouth. We can always eat some nuts, or grubs, but If i can roast a squirrel of rabbit over a fire, you can have all my grubs. :barf:


It's just not looking promising for the sling, for Joe Average, except for those who will dedicate the time and effort to become proficient. That is going to be very, very few people.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

=Kevin the grey;4151576]When we speak of possibilities here they must be viable. Generally speaking, for the average man. That is whom we address when we post here.

Kevin, I hate to disagree with a fellow Canadian, especially with one that seems as personable as you, but, that is not who I'm addressing. Hopefully, I'm addressing people that share some of the same interests as myself. Many who have more experience than I, in some, or all interests, and others who perhaps have less. The common denominator is a desire to share and learn things of wilderness survival. This already precludes the average man. How many average men do you know of that have an interest in these things? None or very few, I'll bet.

I've posted here before, about friction fire and there are those that responded that it's a waste of time. Personally, I consider it the primary outdoor skill. The rule of 3's say that the first consideration (in most cases) is shelter and for me, fire and shelter are inextricably linked.

We all have different destinations that we'll get to by different paths. Learning to make a 'making-meat' survival bow and hunting with a sling successfully, are, hopefully, on mine.

Dumbing down our posts for the 'average man' is a waste of time. Among other things, examining possibilities should be our goal.

Anyway, I guess I spent my 2 cents,

Doc

 

[Kevin the grey]

Doc Clarity and straightforwardness are always appreciated. At least in my camp.

We do not choose those who read our posts. They choose for themselves.
I do not in any way shape or form wish things to be dumbed down. I wish them to be practical. Yes a bow is a practical survival tool for those with a bit of experience. Especially if it could be considered a night time task while other means of procurring food are explored.

I think a survival situation only offers so many chances. If an inexperienced man chooses wrongly too many times he will not survive. To me this site is for everyone. Not just for those whom we wish to target. No-one makes any disclaimers that this is a site for experienced people only.

How many average men(average as in dullard) are interested in what we do? Proabably not that many.
How many average poor souls trapped in citys with (average city slicker skills) wish to become better than average when it comes to skill levels? I think thats a higher percentage. I will not presume facts not in evidence. That having been said I would wager there are more here who read posts and respond than start threads. Further I would say there are more here who read and do not post at all. I would also place a bet that among those there are a great deal of them whose biggest camping adventure involved having a McDonalds close by.

Yes examining possibilities is a valid platform. That is until it becomes academic. Telling people this is a viable solution is a moot point if they cannot survive to appreciate the point being made.

This is not in direct reference to you. There is a presumption of facts not in evidence. Some present a view by referring to facts that support the point they wish to make and ignore the facts which do not support it.
=========================================================
This again does not refer to something you posted.
I also did not present slinging as a better alternative than a bow as a means of procurring food. I asked about it. I do think that along the lines of deterring whatever predators may come your way it has some merit. Personally I think hunger and shelter are bigger threats than animal attacks.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Kevin, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that your last post suggests that you think I'm offended? Definitely not.

Of course, this site is for everyone who is interested enough to come to it. Inexperienced? I have seen many examples of people like Runningboar, Pict, Coote, and yourself, to name but a few, that are more than happy to answer anybody's questions, inexperienced people, included. What I would hope to see, as an inexperienced person, is the possibilities and know that whatever my questions are, there are probably people here that can answer them. So I learn them and then go and apply them. This is how the inexperienced, become the experienced.

As for me, one time someone suggested that if I wasn't more careful, I'd find my ass in a sling, so I thought I should know more about them.

Doc

 

[mewolf1]

There is a presumption of facts not in evidence. Some present a view by referring to facts that support the point they wish to make and ignore the facts which do not support it.

Did I misunderstand? I hope that you didn't misunderstand me. What I was trying to point out is that nothing is impossible if one trys, and puts effort toward a goal of learning average or otherwise. Nothing derogetory toward you or your post. Sorry if it seemed that way. I had hoped the smilies might convey that.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

What I was trying to point out is that nothing is impossible if one trys, and puts effort toward a goal of learning average or otherwise.

Although I've already pointed out in a previous post, that I'm not a hockey fan, but since I live about 25 miles away from where Gretzky grew up, I may have overheard him say, "100% of the shots you don't take, don't go in."

:thumbup: mewolf

BTW, is it just me, or is the current Primitive Archer a piece of crap?

Doc

 

[Kevin the grey]

Kevin, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that your last post suggests that you think I'm offended? Definitely not.

Of course, this site is for everyone who is interested enough to come to it. Inexperienced? I have seen many examples of people like Runningboar, Pict, Coote, and yourself, to name but a few, that are more than happy to answer anybody's questions, inexperienced people, included. What I would hope to see, as an inexperienced person, is the possibilities and know that whatever my questions are, there are probably people here that can answer them. So I learn them and then go and apply them. This is how the inexperienced, become the experienced.

As for me, one time someone suggested that if I wasn't more careful, I'd find my ass in a sling, so I thought I should know more about them.

Doc

Did I think you were offended? Nope not a bit. I do present a very strong case for what I believe in. I know I am right. There is no room for doubt. I feel that strongly about it.

When I present a case in this manner I can offend those of lesser worth to themselves. I cannot help but present a strong case to a man such as you. I think I would offend if I did less.

B:T:W:
I was not privy to the knowledge that someone would put your ass in a sling. Preposterous,they could never lift you. A trebuchet? Now you are talking.

 

[Kevin the grey]

Augh, Do not mention archery magazines. Its been ages since I've seen any.

How could primitive archer be crap? Have they gone downhill a bit? :grumpy:

Gosh thats my favourite. I remember one with a story about a medicine man removing a broken tooth with a wooden chisel and other implements.
Not something I would ever hope to have come to pass for me. And yet the description sounded feasible .

Actually I had a Naval Dentist dislocate my jaw removing a tooth.

I think I'll go for the wooden chisel next time.

 

[runningboar]

Chris, your gig, you talking a 3 pronged gig, like if we took 3 large fishing hooks, bent them straighter?? i mean like the kind we use when we go ocea fishing, for tuna shark and such??? Do you think that might be what you are looking for?
And, are you meaning for fishing, or for spear throwing on land, against fur-bearin critters? (for survival purposes only, of course).

[/url]

This is what I carry now, I want the same exact thing with a flat hour glass shaped tang with lashing holes, I would actually like to have several. If I was hungry I would stab anything I get close enough too fur, fowl, or fish. Chris

 

[Kevin the grey]

This is what I carry now, I want the same exact thing with a flat hour glass shaped tang with lashing holes, I would actually like to have several. If I was hungry I would stab anything I get close enough too fur, fowl, or fish. Chris

What is the advantage of the flat hourglass shaped tang ? Are not sockets better?

Remind me not to go in the woods if you are hungry.

 

[Kevin the grey]

I have come to the conclusion that I was not describing an average forumite here when describing someone with little prior knowledge.

The average person here is not the average elsewhere. I do wish there was a way beyond Darwinian selection for those who see certain subjects as viable solutions when really they are not. I also realise we cannot measure every word we say as we are not professional writers for survival mags.

 

[runningboar]

Sockets might very well be better for fitting a handle, but they are with out a doubt not better for packing in a small place, such as a pocket EDC kit, and with some 550 cord and the saw on my SAK it would still be easy to put a handle on.

 

[mewolf1]

I have come to the conclusion that I was not describing an average forumite here when describing someone with little prior knowledge.

The average person here is not the average elsewhere. I do wish there was a way beyond Darwinian selection for those who see certain subjects as viable solutions when really they are not. I also realise we cannot measure every word we say as we are not professional writers for survival mags.

100$:thumbup: The problem with the net, like the phone is that it is hard to convey what one is trying to say without inflection of the voice, expresstion of the face...ect. Much is lost for me without it, cripes, I can't even get the spelling right half the time.

 

[SkunkWerX]

I have come to the conclusion that I was not describing an average forumite here when describing someone with little prior knowledge.

The average person here is not the average elsewhere. I do wish there was a way beyond Darwinian selection for those who see certain subjects as viable solutions when really they are not. I also realise we cannot measure every word we say as we are not professional writers for survival mags.

Kevin, regarding your statement... for those who see certain subjects as viable solutions when really they are not. I was thinking this in the Spear thread, we mostly discussed as weapon and defense, but between the lines I was realizing the Spear is not necessairly going to being home the bacon.
But, thats why we discuss this stuff, pros cons, and, what works for one person's skill-set may not work for anothers.


Kevin, I don't know that even writers measure every word they say?
I've read a lot crap, I ahve even written a lot of crap.

But you are correct, in that the average forumite, at least in here, is far above average when placed amongst the general population. But, being optimistic, I still think the general population has enough people who were boyscouts, girlscouts, go camping for recreation, etc. that there is hope for them.
The sad thing is that there are plenty of people with some knowledge of the otudoors, but, for whatever reason, don't try to prepare themselves. They go for an innocent hike while on vacation, and don't even bring a water bottle or pocket knife. That's pretty sad.
If anything, maybe the recent survival "entertainemnt" shows will raise awareness, just a smidgeon, to cuase someone to say "Hay, maybe I better take an SAK with me when I take a stroll in the woods". That's one small step for man.

Runningboar! Very cool gaff/gig/food-sticker. Nice! I like it! :thumbup:
Similar to Kevin, trying to figure out the hourglass shape part of it, it's just not something I can visualize.

The RB-Gig (as we can call it) has some good "average guy" merit? No?
The average guy with a pocket knife and cordage can place it on the end of stick and doesn't take too much gray matter to figure you are gonna "stick" things with it.
Stalking prey would be something they would just have to figure out, through trial and error. They are going to be too loud and not stealthy enough in the beginning, scare away their prey, but give them a day or two, and they will figure out they need to be "vewwy vewwy" quiet.
As Elmer Fudd says: "Shhhhhhh, I'm huntin wabbit".

I think the RB-Gig is a winner for a medium sized Survival kit (Rucksak sized kit). Snares for passive trapping, and the Gig for active pursuit of food.

 

[Codger_64]

A mounting socket is good if you are able to closely shape the end of the shaft to fit inside. But security depends upon your being able to pin the socket to the shaft. Carrying a small nail with your gig is one way. The hourglass shape would let you split the end of your shaft and haft the gig like a stone arrowhead, much more secure.

Codger

 

[runningboar]

A mounting socket is good if you are able to closely shape the end of the shaft to fit inside. But security depends upon your being able to pin the socket to the shaft. Carrying a small nail with your gig is one way. The hourglass shape would let you split the end of your shaft and haft the gig like a stone arrowhead, much more secure.

Codger

Exactly, I bought an old, old hickory cleaver at a swap meet for 3 dollars, I think that is going to be the raw materials for my gig. I have speared a lot of frogs and fish and a few turtles, every spring as a matter of fact, I'm not french but I am addicted to breaded and deep fried frog legs. I generally carry my gig every where I go and have built expediant handles quite a bit, with a socket head they are nearly always servicable but not very tight, I don't think as good as a flat tang would be. Also in a survival situation there is no reason not to use the gig on small game and birds if possible. Chris

 

[Kevin the grey]

I guess the point I was trying to make was valid . It is that what I saw as the average was valid as a general point of view. In this specific case it is too difficult too define exactly who pays attention to what we are doing here.
=======================================================

As far as a socketed spear and fitting it to the shaft? It is paramount that the fit be very good.If by spinning it we mean to test it for concentricity then that is important as well. It is less important unless the spear will be thrown.

Spinning it as a valid test would require that your shaft be very straight.
If your shaft has a knot or two. If it has a gentle curve along part of its length they would affect the outcome of the test. Your spearpoint/fork could be perfectly straight and solid. If you rotate the shaft over the length that is uneven in any way it will show ambiguous results.

I think a good long socket(3 inches)and a keen eye would serve as well in the case of a survival situation manufactured shaft. First off I think you need to get your shaft as straight as possible. Then stand it up and look at it. turn it a quarter turn and look at it again. If you notice a gentle curve along its length it can be gently heated for a while over a fire. You would want it hot enough to be uncomfortable to the touch. It need only be heated over the curved section and a few inches to either side. You can then gently bend it with one end on the ground and your protected hand above the curve. Bend it just beyond straight in the opposite direction to the curve. Let it cool considerably in this position. If it has taken on a very slight curve in the opposite direction it will proabably return to straight.

This may have to be done a couple of times. As long as it is reasonably straight you have bigger things to occupy your mind.

Now you can fit spearpoint to shaft. Stand Your spear up as vertical as can be safely done. Step off about three feet and look at it. Does it look straight? Rotate the shaft a quarter turn does it look straight? If it is only off a little in one direction a little judicious sanding/whittling can be done to the shaft to make it seat better. If you can carefully grab the socket and push twist it on towards the direction it needs to be this can sometimes show where you need to take wood off . It will show as rubbed/scratched/burnished wood. At this point don't take off very much at a time. A little may do a lot.

 

[Kevin the grey]

Exactly, I bought an old, old hickory cleaver at a swap meet for 3 dollars, I think that is going to be the raw materials for my gig. I have speared a lot of frogs and fish and a few turtles, every spring as a matter of fact, I'm not french but I am addicted to breaded and deep fried frog legs. I generally carry my gig every where I go and have built expediant handles quite a bit, with a socket head they are nearly always servicable but not very tight, I don't think as good as a flat tang would be. Also in a survival situation there is no reason not to use the gig on small game and birds if possible. Chris

How are those Old Hickory cleavers? I find their cutlery to be amazingly good for the price.

I think you are on to something with a flat tang as opposed to a socket. I don't think many here could make a socketed spearhead. A tanged spearhead doesn't have to be much more than a flat piece of metal sharpened to a point.

I guess your hourglass tang shape helps to secure it in the split/cut in the end of the spearshaft? I think a curve in the waist of the hourglass would be the strongest? Do you think that just makes it more complicated?

I think the real challenge for a multi-tined barbed fish fork would to have the tines thin enough to easily pierce fish and frogs as opposed to cutting crushing through the body?

Dang son, frogs legs,squirrel dumplings? Your kitchen must smell great on a Saturday night? :thumbup:

 

[SkunkWerX]

Kevin, I think your method for sizing and affixing to a socket is a rational way to go about it.
Check it, turn it, take a little more off, until it fits snugly.

Also, as an added suggestion, the woodworker in me says cut a notch in the tapered/wittled end that is going into the socket. Wittle a thin wedge of hard wood, and get it started in the notch/slot that has been cut in the end.
As the socket slides down over the shaft, the wedge hits bottom of socket, and starts forcing itself into the shaft, spreading the shaft against the walls of the socket tightly. With the gig facing skyward, you pound the opposite end of the shaft on the ground, and the socket hits home, wedge binds it all in there.
I would suggest that a small hole drilled in the side of the socket, and a simple screw eye would be cheap insurance.

I have also heard of old timers soaking these kind of wooden joints in water, for a time, so that the wood absorbs water and swells, making it even tighter.
I can't say for sure, but something in the back of mind says we might pay for the soaking, later down the road, as it dries out and loosens up. Just thought I'd mention it, it may some merit in other applications.