Small Inkosi users: Why the Inkosi over a small Sebenza?

[d.2.the.p]

Are you opening the small Inkosi like a front/lip flipper? I have absolutely no luck opening my Large Inkosi in this manner.

I use the lug for normal use, but it front flips fairly easily when I'm just fidgeting with it. I have owned quite a few front flippers from South African makers over the years, so I've gotten my technique down.

 

[d.2.the.p]

I actually understand and even am cautioned by your point here. But, since we are now in 2017, I'd say the Zaan has acquitted itself just fine as a user that definitely holds up. I'm thinking the 25/Inkosi will fare just as well.

Having personally owned a Zaan in the past, and given its continual popularity among knife users, I think it's safe to say that the design is tried and true.

 

[d.2.the.p]

Love 'em both. The Inkosi has been getting the nod the last few weeks..

I'm actually considering giving one of the micarta inlays a go since my mixed feelings about the Inkosi revolves around how it feels in hand.

 

[Mick_1KRR]

you don't science much do you?

Please don't attempt posting patronizing comments or attempt to school me on knives, lock bar geometry and lockup concepts. I practically eat and breathe knife structural design, it's my favorite part of the bobby. Plus, you posted zero "science" in your reply. I'm well aware that the ceramic ball will last a long time, as well as being aware of all the design concepts, i just don't like the design, ceramic will cut into that tang long term, it's just a fact. Interested to see a 10-15 yr old ceramic ball and tang interface that has been in proper USE, not in a drawer and then we'll see some results. The Umnum is barely 9 yrs old with most being used moderately or stored as safe queens, this isn't really enough to base conclusions on regarding lockup longevity. Cheers

 

[bhyde]

The ceramic ball has the wrong geometry to cut anything..coming from someone that has used most forms of cutting tools on just about any metal you can imagine. In this case, the ceramic ball is deforming the tang or moving material aside. This is more of a compressive action than anything else.
The technical term for what is happening is called burnishing

More on burnishing; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnishing_(metal)

 

[Mick_1KRR]

The ceramic ball has the wrong geometry to cut anything..coming from someone that has used most forms of cutting tools on just about any metal you can imagine. In this case, the ceramic ball is deforming the tang or moving material aside. This is more of a compressive action than anything else.
The technical term for what is happening is called burnishing

More on burnishing; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnishing_(metal)

Yes this is true, cutting was perhaps the wrong term to use when describing the ceramic wearing against steel. I'm just really curious to see how much the wear would affect the tang long term. Since CRK state their tang geometry is so slight, i'm wondering how much wear/burnishing the tang could endure without making a large change to lockup. To be honest 100% lockup is not the cancer of knives people make it out to be, even if a knife had 100% lockup and there was a microscopic amount of vertical play there, the knife technically is even more secure in that it has even less chance of unlocking. Especially in a CRK knife where the lock bar tension is so high. I'm sure overall the Ceramic/steel mating surface isn't a huge issue, i'm just really curious to know how it would look after extended use long term. For instance look at this post from another Umnum owner below.

Standard Ti on steel for me please, no more ceramic ball interface.

I've used and occasionally abused more than one Sebenza and I've carried CRK all but a few weeks total over close to a decade, the RIL has never worn out on any of my knives let alone "broke in" or worn in any way noticeable to my eye.
After close to 3 yrs carrying an Umnumzaan the lock has noticeably moved closer to the other side. I don't know if it's because the ball interferes with less material on the tang than the normal frame lock touches, because the ceramic cuts or polishes its way across, or if it's just this knife in particular but my vote would be for the removal of the ball from the CRK line up.
Please don't take this as a complaint, I still love and carry my Zaan, will carry that knife forever- but I would love it more without the ceramic lock ball.
Since I'm daydreaming ask Chris to make that knife for me with a pivot bushing , the old style pivot, and the old style block jimping with no lbs - tell him I'll take 3

 

[Amoo]

The current solution to old style (read non-ceramic ball face CRKs) when the lockup slips all the way to 100% because the TI on the handle is already hardened beyond that of the tang is to install a larger diameter stop pin. How on earth would a non ceramic ball interface CRK lock slip to 100% after 15 or so years of super hard use?

I've seen 3 posts in various places so far of people needing to have their stop pin replaced because of this. If I were a CRK cynic I could look at that and say, "OMG CRK'S SUCK THEY FAIL AFTER 15 YEAR "link post". Your method of research and conclusion isn't that extreme, but founded on the same principles none the less.

Also FWIW the stories we read on this forum are such a minute amount of the CRK carrying and using community it's not even funny. The only people who really know the long term effects of both are the folks at CRK who see however many thousand a year come through for warranty work, which also doesn't even take into account those who have a CRK and have no interest in sending them their knife for 2 months.

My point here is where I'll go back to my original post you got flippy about. Instead of reading individual anecdotal stories and drawing your conclusion from there, the answer to your question lies in physics which is exactly what bhyde posted an example of and you still countered with anecdotal stories. I prefer the physics method to the 3-5 posts you might find to prove a point otherwise. (Just to help you out a little bit here, when you reach the "end" of travel not all of the metal gets "burnished" aka pushed off/compressed off to the side. A portion of it builds up at the stopping point of where the ball comes to a stop in the track making the metal at that point progressively more dense.)

 

[pwrdbycotn]

Please don't attempt posting patronizing comments or attempt to school me on knives, lock bar geometry and lockup concepts. I practically eat and breathe knife structural design, it's my favorite part of the bobby. Plus, you posted zero "science" in your reply. I'm well aware that the ceramic ball will last a long time, as well as being aware of all the design concepts, i just don't like the design, ceramic will cut into that tang long term, it's just a fact. Interested to see a 10-15 yr old ceramic ball and tang interface that has been in proper USE, not in a drawer and then we'll see some results. The Umnum is barely 9 yrs old with most being used moderately or stored as safe queens, this isn't really enough to base conclusions on regarding lockup longevity. Cheers

Who gives a crap? Let's say I buy a large micarta inkosi, $540, and it lasts 15 years. That's $36/year to use it. If the ball wears out the tang after 15 years, I'll throw it in the trash and buy something else. All this hand-wringing over a few bucks a year. I'll spend $36 on drinks for my wife and I when we go to dinner.
I was also laughing to myself about this when I thought about 10-15 years of hard use on one of these knives. If you're using the knife hard enough for the ceramic ball to completely wear out the tang of the blade, then by necessity, you'll have sharpened the blade down to a toothpick. So yeah, you might have a lot of toothpick play once the ceramic ball moves all the way over lol.

I'm thinking that owning a CRK isn't your best choice. Perhaps a Buck fixed blade is more your speed...or a Bear Grylls.

 

[Mick_1KRR]

Who gives a crap? Let's say I buy a large micarta inkosi, $540, and it lasts 15 years. That's $36/year to use it. If the ball wears out the tang after 15 years, I'll throw it in the trash and buy something else. All this hand-wringing over a few bucks a year. I'll spend $36 on drinks for my wife and I when we go to dinner.
I was also laughing to myself about this when I thought about 10-15 years of hard use on one of these knives. If you're using the knife hard enough for the ceramic ball to completely wear out the tang of the blade, then by necessity, you'll have sharpened the blade down to a toothpick. So yeah, you might have a lot of toothpick play once the ceramic ball moves all the way over lol.

I'm thinking that owning a CRK isn't your best choice. Perhaps a Buck fixed blade is more your speed...or a Bear Grylls.

Get off your high horse, heaven forbid we look at something subjectively or in closer detail than just "buy it, use it and chuck it away". There's more to this hobby in relation to knowledge than you're obviously interested in. Ever heard of just having a discussion? Or analyzing simple structural design choices in $500 toys? Nice touch on the Bear Grylls suggestion, "CRK is not for me" ? you do realize i'm here because i own and use Sebenzas right, and yeah maybe the ceramic ball isn't for me, i guess that touches a nerve for you, not really my concern.

 

[Officer's Match]

Who gives a crap? Let's say I buy a large micarta inkosi, $540, and it lasts 15 years. That's $36/year to use it. If the ball wears out the tang after 15 years, I'll throw it in the trash and buy something else. All this hand-wringing over a few bucks a year. I'll spend $36 on drinks for my wife and I when we go to dinner.
I was also laughing to myself about this when I thought about 10-15 years of hard use on one of these knives. If you're using the knife hard enough for the ceramic ball to completely wear out the tang of the blade, then by necessity, you'll have sharpened the blade down to a toothpick. So yeah, you might have a lot of toothpick play once the ceramic ball moves all the way over lol.

I'm thinking that owning a CRK isn't your best choice. Perhaps a Buck fixed blade is more your speed...or a Bear Grylls.

Actually a lot less than $36 per year, as you would only be replacing a blade to be back to as-new functional (as you later pointed out).

 

[blanco112]

If the ceramic ball burnishing causes any issues with the blade wouldn't this be covered by warranty?

 

[bhyde]

Yes this is true, cutting was perhaps the wrong term to use when describing the ceramic wearing against steel. I'm just really curious to see how much the wear would affect the tang long term. Since CRK state their tang geometry is so slight, i'm wondering how much wear/burnishing the tang could endure without making a large change to lockup. To be honest 100% lockup is not the cancer of knives people make it out to be, even if a knife had 100% lockup and there was a microscopic amount of vertical play there, the knife technically is even more secure in that it has even less chance of unlocking. Especially in a CRK knife where the lock bar tension is so high. I'm sure overall the Ceramic/steel mating surface isn't a huge issue, i'm just really curious to know how it would look after extended use long term. For instance look at this post from another Umnum owner below.

Weird..

When I first read your response, I didn't see you cut in a quote from 1AbominAble1. Added that later.

I have had my Umnumzaan as long as anybody. Actually ordered it when they were first released and I do use it..but I rotate through several..but it doesn't live in a safe.
What's really telling, is if the ceramic ball was that bad, we would see more data than we have that the lockbars are moving at breakneck speeds like the quote you inserted as some sort of empirical evidence.
There are thousands of these on the market..surely, not everybody is using them to open letters as suggested earlier.

Either way, it doesn't sound like anything is going to change your mind on the ceramic ball..It's already made up.


And before this thread goes off the rails any more than it already has, discuss the knives..not each other.

 

[bhyde]

If the ceramic ball burnishing causes any issues with the blade wouldn't this be covered by warranty?

Yes

http://www.chrisreeve.com/warranty-info.html

 

[pwrdbycotn]

Get off your high horse, heaven forbid we look at something subjectively or in closer detail than just "buy it, use it and chuck it away". There's more to this hobby in relation to knowledge than you're obviously interested in. Ever heard of just having a discussion? Or analyzing simple structural design choices in $500 toys? Nice touch on the Bear Grylls suggestion, "CRK is not for me" ? you do realize i'm here because i own and use Sebenzas right, and yeah maybe the ceramic ball isn't for me, i guess that touches a nerve for you, not really my concern.

The point I was trying to make, is that this conversation isn't grounded in anything that's of a major concern, or even a minor concern. If you use the knife until the end of it's usable life, then either send it in and have it re-bladed or chalk it up to getting your money's worth and pitch it. Either way, we're talking about years upon years. In 10-15 years we may all be carrying light sabers or pocket-sized plama cutters. I just think you're getting all worked up over a fantasy situation that so far none of us has seen, at least not here on bf. So, in closing, whether you like the ceramic ball or not, I don't really care. For those of us that buy one of the knives with that feature, we're guaranteed that it will serve us well for many years to come.

 

[Therom]

I may be too basic in my way of thinking but I really doubt that there will be a difference for the average CRK user due to interface, lock up or any other purely technical aspects that may possibly has effect after 10+years of use

IMHO the differences will be on blade grind, dimensions and ergos, look and smoothness of operation

I think the small sebenza is more versatile for EDC (at least you can slice an apple correctly ), but my small Inkosi is way smoother and it is a very nice small urban EDC
At the moment I carry the inkosi more than my insingo

 

[d.2.the.p]

IMHO the differences will be on blade grind, dimensions and ergos, look and smoothness of operation

I think the small sebenza is more versatile for EDC (at least you can slice an apple correctly ), but my small Inkosi is way smoother and it is a very nice small urban EDC
At the moment I carry the inkosi more than my insingo

I agree that Seb is probably more well-rounded. My small CF Insingo has a permanent home in my meager collection.

However, the Inkosi is definitely growing on me. The action is simply amazing. Also, I find the more I carry and use it, the more my fingers instinctively find the correct position in the finger choils. I'm beginning to ponder trying an inlayed version to see if it improves the feel in-hand.

 

[Amoo]

If the ceramic ball burnishing causes any issues with the blade wouldn't this be covered by warranty?

I want to piggy back on what bhyde said here, because I don't want somebody reading this and getting the wrong idea.

The whole point of adding a ceramic ball interface was to purposely cause this burnishing.

Now I'm not Tim or Anne or even Chris himself for that matter, but my thought would be it was done to eliminate or severely cut down on the tang wear that was being created by the old interface. So essentially, what would happen with the old models is the entire Ti lockface would wear against the tang over many many many many many years and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of openings and eventually the lockbar would hit 100% and they would have to install a larger stop pin.

The theory with the ceramic ball interface and the burnishing is it is entirely intended to "cut" into the metal surface of the blade itself, but as we learned because it is really smashing and not cutting it is creating more dense metal as it does so. So now when you start out with a knife that breaks into say 50%, it no longer has to overcome just the blade tang. Instead that ceramic ball now has to overcome the more dense surface it has created for itself in order to walk beyond that point. Imagine if you take a piece of paper and scrunch it up in your hands, the harder you scrunch the harder it is to keep scrunching. Same applies here with what the ball is doing to the blade tang. Now in theory, yes this could eventually still get to 100% lockup, but that should happen significantly longer then the old lock interface.

Again, that's just what physics tells me about the whole thing. YMMV.

 

[blanco112]

I want to piggy back on what bhyde said here, because I don't want somebody reading this and getting the wrong idea.

The whole point of adding a ceramic ball interface was to purposely cause this burnishing.

Now I'm not Tim or Anne or even Chris himself for that matter, but my thought would be it was done to eliminate or severely cut down on the tang wear that was being created by the old interface. So essentially, what would happen with the old models is the entire Ti lockface would wear against the tang over many many many many many years and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of openings and eventually the lockbar would hit 100% and they would have to install a larger stop pin.

The theory with the ceramic ball interface and the burnishing is it is entirely intended to "cut" into the metal surface of the blade itself, but as we learned because it is really smashing and not cutting it is creating more dense metal as it does so. So now when you start out with a knife that breaks into say 50%, it no longer has to overcome just the blade tang. Instead that ceramic ball now has to overcome the more dense surface it has created for itself in order to walk beyond that point. Imagine if you take a piece of paper and scrunch it up in your hands, the harder you scrunch the harder it is to keep scrunching. Same applies here with what the ball is doing to the blade tang. Now in theory, yes this could eventually still get to 100% lockup, but that should happen significantly longer then the old lock interface.

Again, that's just what physics tells me about the whole thing. YMMV.

Yeah, my only point with my comment was to say that a lot of this back and forth while possibly educational is perhaps much ado about nothing since we can theorize all we want about whether this will cause problems 10-15 years from now but at the end of the day it doesn't matter since it's covered.

 

[Therom]

When I got my small Inkosi I was somehow disappointed ... especially when compared to my small sebenza
But after a while I started to get into it and it is now one of my favourite small edc

 

[Therom]

When I got my small Inkosi I was somehow disappointed ... especially when compared to my small sebenza
But after a while I started to get into it and it is now one of my favourite small edc