Smith and Wesson 440?

fedaykincmndr

fedaykincmndr

Joined
Aug 3, 2004
Messages
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I was looking at Smoky Mountain Knife Works today and noticed that the S&W boot knives are made from 440c stainless. Anyone know about the heat treat that S&W uses. I've heard a lot of bad about the SWAT but this one is HRT as far as I know and have heard some good. Any info greatly appreciated; thanks in advance.
 
Crap.
I'm sorry, but I think that so long as Taylor cutlery is producing over seas, the quality will remain quite shotty. To be honest, this really pisses me off. (Pardon my french.) I like a lot of the S&W designs, but the quality and craftsmanship is so poor that I simply can't look at them anymore.
But OOOH do they have some nice designs. I've fondled a huge Search and Rescue fixed blade that we got in a while ago. It feels great. The balance is spot on. Hell, it even almost fits in the sheath! At $60, I want to pull it out for people. But I know that they will continue to disappoint.
-KC
 
Out of curiosity, which boot knife were you looking at? If it's the tanto, then you should also know that it has a poor bevel and won't cut well.
 
fedaykincmndr said:
I was looking at Smoky Mountain Knife Works today and noticed that the S&W boot knives are made from 440c stainless. Anyone know about the heat treat that S&W uses. I've heard a lot of bad about the SWAT but this one is HRT as far as I know and have heard some good. Any info greatly appreciated; thanks in advance.
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As far as I know they are made in Asia, either China or Taiwan. Who does the heat treating is anyone's guess. Whether the steel is even 440c is anyone's guess. In the past S&W was just licensing their name to distributors who contracted with Chinese manufacturers for product. Most of the product looked poorly made and slapped together. The newer product looks like S&W is actually concerned about the quality or at least the appearance of quality. The grind lines are uniform and crisp. The handle materials look better. I still wouldn't bother with them. There are companies that make inexpensive product and have a great reputation, CRKT comes to mind.
 
Just for general culture about the HT of the 440c in an industrial process, this steel is self tempering when getting out of the oven at the right temperature and going down in temperature on the right slope. So the quality there is defined by the respect of the cycle time... I think the quality of the blade that bear the S&W logo has improved, but I think those blades would deserve some real testing, so we know what to expect from it. The best design in their new blades seems to be the HRT Combat Survival, if someone has one, please put it to test (chopping ability, penetration performance, edge retention, field toughness, etc...)the result will sure interest a lot of people here... :)

Xavier.
 
I have a SWAT that I purchased NIB in the Spring of 2003. It is an excellent knife for the money. Its quality is excellent; the knife is sturdy, the action is smooth, and the fit is excellent. It is my understanding that years ago the quality on S&W knives was poor, but lately the quality is just fine.
 
If you look at the newer S&W designs you may be able to see the Darrel Ralph influence. Evidently, he went after them for cloning his designs and they ended up licensing them instead. The HRT is one of these, so the quality may have to meet his minimum standards.

I agree there are other companies out there doing the job right all along, and I'd be more inclined to recommend you buy from them, but not all the S&W are POS anymore.
 
I was looking at the double edge boot knife, I guess for 15 bucks it would be fairly expendable as opposed to the 45-50 for the SOG Mini Pentagon I've been eyeing for a LOOOOOOONG time...but man o' man that MP looks mean.
 
A few Smith & Wesson folders are decent knives for the money like their D. Ralph designed models, but most of their other stuff is crap. I only own one S&W folder and that's one of their Magnesium handled ones (I got rid of the rest). Due to Taylor Cutlery's past reputation, I'm reluctant to buy any more of their products no matter how good the quality is. Although, I have to admit that I am curious to see what ther new "Schrade" line will be like.
 
440C is a great steel. Taylor Cutlery has the resources and expertise to heat treat it. S&W knives are good knives and a trmendous value.
 
I'll be up front with you. I hate that the "manufacturers" are going to China for production. I think it is bad for the industry because it is nothing but a race for the lowest price. It doesn't help the manufacturers, the dealers or the consumers. It just cheapens the entire industry. But that is what is happening despite what I may want or like.

However, I can tell you things are improving in terms of quality in China. Recently I sent a Chinese made chef's knife to a man who is very knowledgeable and known for writing honest reviews about products. He thought the knife was better than what is being produced in Europe and an excellent value. He has panned expensive customs so he's not afraid to speak his mind.

I read recommendations for the Kershaw Vapor on these forums. Chinese. I read glowing reports about Rough Rider slipjoints. Chinese. I tend to base my opinions of quality on the rate of returns we get from customers. I get almost no returns on S&W knives and we sell them by the thousands. Certainly the price of the knives sets a reasonable level of expectation but still very few returns. I get more returns as a percentage of sales by far from Microtech, MOD, Benchmade and others. Higher price, higher level of expectation.

I'm not suggesting S&W are in the same league with these other brands. What I'm saying is that they represent for the consumer a better "value." They perform and look better for their price than the American made more expensive knives. I'm not happy about that, mind you. I'm just reporting the facts. I'd much rather sell Microtechs by the thousands. Taylor Cutlery has been very successful, particularly with their licensing of the S&W brand. They are providing what a large segment of the knife buying public want to buy. The products aren't bad. They are a good value and they appeal to a lot of people. That's end of this rant. Take care.
 
I've got one of the new camo kerambits and I've got to say it's pretty nice. The edge it came with wasnt that great but it was easy to fix and it's a framelock so I dont have to worry about it folding on my fingers. The fit and finish arnt gonna match up with benchmade but for 20bux I'm not gonna complain. Actually with CRKT pulling there little switch over to 420j2 and aus-4 I think S&W knives will be the new best bang for the buck......
 
Junk. Complete junk. Do yourself a favor and completely disassociate these knives with the S&W name. The steel's treat is awful, the liners are thin, the lockup is less reassuring than a slipjoint, and the dual-sided screws make it a PITA to adjust. One example I tried (which looked like a Crawford knockoff) the blade contacted one of the backspacers and even though brand new, had a flat spot on the blade. Even though you can usually find them for less than $20, give them a pass and pick up a Kabar Dozier, Byrd, or Kershaw for about the same price.
 
Cosmic Superchunk said:
A few Smith & Wesson folders are decent knives for the money like their D. Ralph designed models, but most of their other stuff is crap.
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My problem is - how the hell can I tell? I've handled enough S&W knives that were crap, I'm just not going to play the lottery on one unless they spend a couple years consistently producing solid knives. Taylor diluted the brand to the point where for me, "S&W" on a knife is a negative rather than an attractor.
 
Nick, a few S&W knives "specifically" their HRT series are on par with CRKT Timberline and other Taiwan-made knives. Their Cuttin' Horse, Extreme Ops, and their cast aluminum SWAT knives are garbage. You're right about the S&W logo being a negative as far as knives go, that's why I only own one S&W folder. I won't give anything associated with Taylor Cutlery a second glance these days. Now we have CRKT who've downgraded a few of their knives to 420J2 steel which appears to be a move to cut costs. I think that Knife Outlet's post about it being a race for the lowest price is true.
 
fedaykincmndr said:
I was looking at the double edge boot knife, I guess for 15 bucks it would be fairly expendable as opposed to the 45-50 for the SOG Mini Pentagon I've been eyeing for a LOOOOOOONG time...but man o' man that MP looks mean.
Click to expand...
Try Camillus' boot knives. The fit and finish is terrible and you have to reprofile the edges completely, but the knives are put together well, nice and thin but solid, and will cut quite well.
 
Cosmic Superchunk said:
Nick, a few S&W knives "specifically" their HRT series are on par with CRKT Timberline and other Taiwan-made knives.
Click to expand...

But if it's just some HRT, not even that whole line - I'm not going to bother sorting.

Seriously, if they go a year straight where everything in, say, their HRT line is reliably as good as at least last year's CRKTs, then I'll look. If they spend a year as good as Timberline, or Kabar Doziers, or Red Class Benchmades, then I'll buy. Right now, I don't even do that. I don't trust myself to be energetic enough to check and make sure what I'm looking at is one of the good ones.

And CRKT is making me think twice, especially since (correct me if I'm wrong) it's not just the NEW non-AUS8 knives that are going to AUS4 and 420J2, but some (many? all?) of their existing AUS6 line will be getting downgraded, meaning it will be impossible to *know* - not guess - that a CRKT I buy online is AUS6.

I don't have any CRKTs that rise above beater status, but I have enjoyed picking them up as cheap windows into custom designs. I'm going to be a lot pickier about that now.

Although based on past experience I'd at least trust a random CRKT not to just fall apart in my hand or completely fail to cut out of the box, which I've both had from S&W.

OK, I wouldn't expect a CRKT First Strike to come sharper than a butterknife either. :rolleyes:
 
It's a pity to hear that Smith & Wesson has bad quality knives. I am not a knife expert, but been carrying some kind of pocket knife always with me for last two decades. I have one Smith & Wesson folder which I really like. It has very good and smooth locking action, feels good in every way and atleast to me the blade steel quality is definitely very good. In my use it stays sharp enough and it's also easy to sharpen when needed.

I dont really know anything about this folder, but on the blade it says: Smith & Wesson S.W.A.T. First Millenium Run. On the other side there is a S&W logo with text: Performance, R.O.C. - 440.

Why I really love this knife, is the fact, that I can open it with just a small quick move of my wrist. It just "flicks" open itself without using any fingers. I dont know the right words to explain it, as english is not my first language. What other folders can be opened like this? I really prefer this way of opening a folder, instead of using fingers to turn the blade out.

This S&W was my EDC for over a year until I bought a Microtech mini Socom and a Spyderco Military, which two I rotate as my EDC now :)

PS. This forum must be the best source for knife information on this planet. Thanks for all the experts sharing your knowledge and for everyone else writing interesting posts!
 
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171244&highlight=HRT+Combat

Four years ago when the HRT Combat Survival knife was still fairly new, I got one and did this somewhat short review.
I still stand by this review. For the price point, it was and possibly still is, a good buy. (Assuming of course they've kept the steel and HT the same.) Change that and all bets are off. :p :D

Please keep in mind that this is ONLY pertaining to the HRT line. I own several of that line and am quite content that I got better than I paid for. The other stuff from Taylor Cutlery leaves me thinking "they could do far better than that". :rolleyes: :barf: :(
 
I have the 5" double edge boot knife. For $20 + shipping, it's a very good deal. Fit and finish is very good compared to knives in it's price range. As for edge holding, I don't know. Seeing as how it's a symmetric dagger whose primary purpose is stabbing with very little utility otherwise I've only stabbed various media with it extensively. Did seem to slash the cardboard I tried it on pretty good, though.

Here is a good review from another member.

One odd thing about it though. Almost every other manufacturer/importer tends to be a little conservative in measuring their blade length. Those that aren't are usually dead on. S&W actually is a little liberal though. The blade is actually 4.875" instead of the stated 5".
 
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