Smith's Diamond Tri-Hone for various steels?

[mykem]

Hi,

I'm close to buying this set and i hope i'll be able to use it effectively for various steels.

The set has three hones; coarse diamond (325 grit) fine diamond (750 grit) and a natural arkansas stone (1000-1200 grit)

http://www.amazon.com/Smiths-50448-...1&keywords=smith's+diamond+tri-hone+sharpener

We have all kinds of steel blades in this house ranging from a set of x50crmov15 wusthof classic kitchen knives to sv30 to vg10 to aus8 to inox and rostfrei and other generic stainless steel blades of unknown composition.

Although i'd love to be able to afford it, i can't be buying individual hones for different families of steel. Will this diamond tri-hone set cover most of the bases including the steels i mentioned above?

 

[exracr]

I have the regular smiths tri-hone and it works pretty well. I finish with Lansky soft Arkansas stones and stropping. Scary sharp.

 

[mykem]

Not a lot of comment on the Smith's, i guess. But at least no one has said, "It's Chinese junk. Save your money.

 

[jpm2]

I've got the smiths 2x6 750 grit and don't care for the interrupted surface.
It's ok until you get to the tip of the knife.
I much prefer the solid surface types.

 

[mykem]

I've got the smiths 2x6 750 grit and don't care for the interrupted surface.
It's ok until you get to the tip of the knife.
I much prefer the solid surface types.

Did this thing smith's inludes at the end of the hone not work for you? It seemed like a useful feature to me.

... Micro-Tool Sharpening Pad. This is the area that has a solid surface of diamond coating that is not interrupted. It is used for sharpening small tools and the tip of your knife blade... .

 

[Jason B.]

You seem to be fixated on the Smiths so you should buy it. Hopefully after you buy it you will realize it's not that great and the Natural Arkansas Stone is only good for basic carbon and soft stainless. So no, the tri stone will not work with all the steels you have.

 

[jpm2]

Did this thing smith's inludes at the end of the hone not work for you? It seemed like a useful feature to me.

... Micro-Tool Sharpening Pad. This is the area that has a solid surface of diamond coating that is not interrupted. It is used for sharpening small tools and the tip of your knife blade... .

It works for one side if you finish the pass with in the lower right, and if you turn it around for the other side and finish the pass at the top left... not very convenient.

 

[mykem]

You seem to be fixated on the Smiths so you should buy it. Hopefully after you buy it you will realize it's not that great and the Natural Arkansas Stone is only good for basic carbon and soft stainless. So no, the tri stone will not work with all the steels you have.

Now we're getting somewhere! Which steels of mine won't it work on? Will it damage any of them?

I think you should forget the Smith's set and but a DMT Coarse if you want a diamond plate. Add a strop and you have enough to create the sharpest of edges.

Will the DMT Coarse work on more of them than the Smith's diamond tri-hone?

From what i can see, the DMT Coarse is 325 grit. Am i wrong? The Smith's coarse is 325 too. What's the difference, is it the quality of the stones themselves?

Thanks

 

[Jason B.]

Arkansas stones are natural stones from the earth, anything beyond soft stainless like found in your kitchen knives or carbon steel like 1095 and these natural stones pretty much stop working.

I recommend the DMT because it is higher quality and known by many to work very well. Yes, it will work on any steel.

 

[bucketstove]

You seem to be fixated on the Smiths so you should buy it. Hopefully after you buy it you will realize it's not that great and the Natural Arkansas Stone is only good for basic carbon and soft stainless. So no, the tri stone will not work with all the steels you have.

I read on the internet it depends on how you use the arkansas stones and how you maintain them

There are 400/1000 or 400/1200 diamond stones for about $20 ... the arkansas is about 1000-1200 grit ... stones require much less force or damaged, the arkansas requires periodic lapping ... decisions decisions

 

[mykem]

Arkansas stones are natural stones from the earth, anything beyond soft stainless like found in your kitchen knives or carbon steel like 1095 and these natural stones pretty much stop working.

I recommend the DMT because it is higher quality and known by many to work very well. Yes, it will work on any steel.

Thank you Jason,

Please bear in mind, i'm not arguing here, i ask questions to learn.

If the DMT and the smith's coarse are both 325 grit, why will the smith's not work on the same steels as the DMT? Quality again?

I know the arkansas 1000-1200 grit stone is not considered very fine but why couldn't it be used for further refinement of those steels the 325 grit will work? And if stropping were added as a final step might we end up with a decent edge?

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Better use DMT, buy the card 3 in one. For softer steel, the F & EF will do. For S30V, the C will be enough for starting the work.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thank you Jason,

Please bear in mind, i'm not arguing here, i ask questions to learn.

If the DMT and the smith's coarse are both 325 grit, why will the smith's not work on the same steels as the DMT? Quality again?

I know the arkansas 1000-1200 grit stone is not considered very fine but why couldn't it be used for further refinement of those steels the 325 grit will work? And if stropping were added as a final step might we end up with a decent edge?

Any diamond hone can work on any steel, in terms of their basic ability to cut the steel. The differences in quality of the hones will be in quality of finish.

Many less-expensive diamond hones are made using polycrystalline diamond. It makes for pretty fast grinding, as the grit crystals are 'clumped' into larger chunks on the surface of the hone, which makes it perform at a coarser level than the rated grit. As the hone wears, some of those larger clumps will break down into the individual grit particles at the rated size, so the grinding speed will slow a bit with wear. DMT uses monocrystalline diamond on their hones, meaning it's not 'clumped' together, but instead more uniformly distributed in individual crystals of uniform size across the hone's surface. The difference that makes is in the consistency of the finish produced; scratch patterns are more uniform, and the finer-rated grits are especially able to better refine the edge. So, a '325' rated hone in polycrystalline diamond will be effectively coarser than a '325' hone in monocrystalline diamond.

Less-expensive diamond hones will also likely be less controlled in uniformity of grit size/shape, and probably less dense in coverage on the hone as well.

I've adopted a habit of using an EZE-Lap diamond hone (poly diamond) for relatively fast grinding on some knives, and then doing more refining & finishing on DMT hones (mono diamond). The DMTs always finish & refine better than the others.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

Thank you Jason,

Please bear in mind, i'm not arguing here, i ask questions to learn.

If the DMT and the smith's coarse are both 325 grit, why will the smith's not work on the same steels as the DMT? Quality again?

I know the arkansas 1000-1200 grit stone is not considered very fine but why couldn't it be used for further refinement of those steels the 325 grit will work? And if stropping were added as a final step might we end up with a decent edge?

The Smith's will work just as the DMT, but the qualities of the diamond (monocrystaline vs polycrystaline) and the plating process is better with the DMT product. The Smiths is a good product, but if the $ is even close I would go with DMT. If the $difference is considerable then go with the Smiths.

You will likely be able to work most of your steels on the Arkansas, but it will have issues with the VG10 and especially on the s30v. It might manage a microbevel on those steels, more in the form of burnishing than grinding.

 

[HeavyHanded]

So, a '325' rated hone in polycrystalline diamond will be effectively coarser than a '325' hone in monocrystalline diamond.

David

Generally speaking the poly will make a finer finish at a given grit value. It will also be a bit slower, all things being equal.

Industrially the poly is more expensive and is used more often for finish work than the mono.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Generally speaking the poly will make a finer finish at a given grit value. It will also be a bit slower, all things being equal.

Industrially the poly is more expensive and is used more often for finish work than the mono.

I'll respectfully disagree (with certainty) on that point. After trying out EZE-Laps 'EF' hone (1200; they actually call it a 'Super Fine'), and they are known to use poly diamond and advertise as such, it's a LOT coarser than DMT's EF (also rated 1200). In fact, in it's relatively new condition (prior to wearing over time), I'd say it's even coarser than DMT's 'Fine' (600). The difference was obvious in the first use. The EZE-Lap hone I use is a double-sided pocket hone, in the style of DMT's DiaFold, and it's other side is rated '400' ('Medium', as they call it); it's coarser than DMT's 'Coarse' (325) hone. When I've used the EZE-Lap 1200, I've usually followed with my DMT Fine (600) in order to refine the edge from the EZE-Lap to cleaner-cutting and nearly burr-free (the DMT excels at this, as compared to others I've tried). That speaks volumes about how they compare.

As an aside, the EZE-Lap was also less expensive than DMT's DiaFold; about $25 for the EZE-Lap, versus the ~ $35 that DMT sells the double-sided DiaFold for. I don't think expense of the diamond is an issue in the case of EZE-Lap's hones (and they're continuous surface and still made in USA). That's what prompted me to try the EZE-Lap in the first place, as it seemed to offer a lot for the money.

It may be that the poly crystals, after they break down over time into mono (effectively), might end up somewhat finer as directly compared to similar-rated mono-diamond hones. Time will tell, with the one I'm using. But when comparing the two side-by-side in relatively new condition, the poly is a lot coarser, both in feel and in edge finish. This is a point actually emphasized by some of EZE-Lap's vendors, as they point out they'll grind very aggressively for some time, before the poly crystals start to break down.

Edit:
Just to make sure I'm not hallucinating any of this, I went back and compared my relatively new DMT 'Coarse' (325) credit card hone to the 'Medium' (400) EZE-Lap again. Both have been very lightly used and purchased within the last 6-12 months, so neither is appreciably worn. Used my trusty Victorinox paring knife as the test vehicle (very thin grind takes only a few passes to completely re-bevel), originally with a near-polished edge from a DMT EF (1200). I first reground the bevels with the Coarse DMT, leaving it's scratch pattern and a little more 'bite' (obviously) than the blade's previous finish from the EF DMT. I then took it to the 'Medium' EZE-Lap, and the edge took a big jump up in toothiness. I was testing with a '3-finger sticky' feel of the edge, as well as by cutting phonebook paper. The Victorinox blade is a great test subject for these things, as it takes great edges at most any finish and is very fast to switch between them, according to my whims.


David

 

[sir_mike]

I'll respectfully disagree (with certainty) on that point. After trying out EZE-Laps 'EF' (1200; they actually call it a 'Super Fine') hone, and they are known to use poly diamond and advertise as such, it's a LOT coarser than DMT's EF (also rated 1200). In fact, in it's relatively new condition (prior to wearing over time), I'd say it's even coarser than DMT's 'Fine' (600). The difference was obvious in the first use. The EZE-Lap hone I use is a double-sided pocket hone, in the style of DMT's DiaFold, and it's other side is rated '400' ('Medium', as they call it); it's coarser than DMT's 'Coarse' (325) hone. When I've used the EZE-Lap 1200, I've usually followed with my DMT Fine (600) in order to refine the edge from the EZE-Lap to cleaner-cutting and nearly burr-free (the DMT excels at this, as compared to others I've tried). That speaks volumes about how they compare.

As an aside, the EZE-Lap was also less expensive than DMT's DiaFold; about $25 for the EZE-Lap, versus the ~ $35 that DMT sells the double-sided DiaFold for. I don't think expense of the diamond is an issue, at least in the case of EZE-Lap's hones (and they're continuous surface and still made in USA). That's what prompted me to try the EZE-Lap in the first place, as it seemed to offer a lot for the money.

It may be that the poly crystals, after they break down over time into mono (effectively), might end up somewhat finer as directly compared to similar-rated mono-diamond hones. Time will tell, with the one I'm using. But when comparing the two side-by-side in relatively new condition, the poly is a lot coarser, both in feel and in edge finish. This is a point actually emphasized by some of EZE-Lap's vendors, as they point out they'll grind very aggressively for some time, before the poly crystals start to break down.


David

I am thinking about the fine/coarse double sided one. Where can it be found for $35?

I have seen the ones with a base listed for about $65 but not without the base for that price. Also would their universal holder work for this stone?

Thx.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I just checked that price at knifecenter.com (BF member dealer). That's the price for the Dia-Fold double-sided pocket hone, as referenced in my post. It sounds as if you're thinking about a bench stone (with or without a base/holder), and those will definitely be more expensive.


David

I am thinking about the fine/coarse double sided one. Where can it be found for $35?

I have seen the ones with a base listed for about $65 but not without the base for that price. Also would their universal holder work for this stone?

Thx.

 

[sir_mike]

You are right! Sorry I missed the "fold" part in your "dia-fold".....

Thx. for the correction!

I just checked that price at knifecenter.com (BF member dealer). That's the price for the Dia-Fold double-sided pocket hone, as referenced in my post. It sounds as if you're thinking about a bench stone (with or without a base/holder), and those will definitely be more expensive.

David

 

[HeavyHanded]

I'll respectfully disagree (with certainty) on that point.

David

I cannot speak to how EZlapp or anyone else rates their products. Polycrystaline is more of a buckyball shape compared to mono. Similar perhaps to how graded SiC is different from the sharper edges in a vitreous stone. My Smith's 325 makes a finish somewhere between the DMT coarse and fine. My lapidary plate rated at 325 grit likewise makes a finer finish, both a noticeably slower than the DMTs.

The mono is preferred for edge work in some respects as its sharper edges make cleaner, deeper cuts in the steel. The poly is more aggressive in a slurry as it has more cutting points, the mono is more aggressive bonded to a plate. At least this is how the literature describes the two.