Smiths pattern welding in/near western WI?

kuraki

kuraki

Fimbulvetr Knifeworks
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Jun 17, 2016
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I'm at my wits end trying to forge weld without resorting to dry fully sealed welding and am wondering if there is anyone in proximity to me that wouldn't mind having me come by and peek over their shoulder.

I really like figuring things out on my own or with YouTube and the forum but I can only hammer so many failed billets and feel like I'm missing some small but critical thing I just can't gleen from tutorials.

I can even pay for the privilege in standard WI currency (beer, cheese curds) or some other way. 😋
 
You are welcome to come to Carlsbad NM, but that is a ways away.
I was having trouble making Damascus till I went to a Damascus class in Washington Arkansas back in 1991. All I needed was to see the color of the steel when it was ready to be forge welded. After that it was easy. Before I was trying to weld before the billet was hot enough.
What kind of flux are you using?
If you use 20 mule team borax, the flux should be melted and boiling and bubbling on top of the billet. The billet should be the same color as the inside of the forge. The forge should be like 2300 degrees.
Are you using a press, power hammer, hand held hammer?
Be sure the steel is clean when you put the billet together.
Now I know there are those who do not clean the steel, who do not use flux, who weld at a orange heat. Good for them. There are different ways to get the same results.
 
Hi Tom. If I can't find anyone closer, maybe I can find a rust free classic Bronco for sale in NM to justify a trip :D

I think what you're saying about the color is my problem. I had no problem welding stainless/carbon san mai by doing the full edge welds and pressing, but every carbon/carbon I've tried to do at home by hand and hammer has failed. Some partially stick. Some don't. And I think the most likely problem is inadequate temperature, but I also think I've overheated too. Being able to see what the sweet spot is I think would help me out, and I don't think it translates well on video.

I've been using this for flux: http://www.piehtoolco.com/contents/en-us/p11938_Black_Magic_Welding_Flux,_2_lb.html

Basically:
1- clean grind all layers
2- weld stringers up the stack in a vise
3- heat to orange and flux (now many variations of flux, reheat, brush, etc etc)
4- heat until flux appears to be bubbling out of the joints
5- Try to set the welds (heavy hit, light tap, everything in between. I understand that ideally you don't hit so hard as to squirt out what little molten metal there is in the joint)
6- Reheat and begin to draw it out.

Sometimes I think I've got a good weld until I start drawing the edge. Sometimes I think I did have a good weld until drawing the edge and I overheated the drawing heat. But mostly every time I've tried it eventually comes apart, usually sooner than later in the drawing process. All hand hammer, which is why it's getting frustrating :o

ETA: I think my biggest issue may be my forge and I'm building a circular blown one now. Maybe that will help.
 
If all the steel is in contact, no significant gaps and the flux is smoking when pulled out of the forge the weld will pretty much always take. The molten stuff shooting out the side during welding is not molten steel but flux, its a good thing to see when welding.

Ideally you dont need to got that hot, with smoking flux, but if I were welding by hand that is exactly what I would be looking for.
 
Yeah, which is why it's so frustrating. I feel like I am doing everything correctly. My flame tweaked to a reducing atmosphere, evidenced by lack of scale, clean flat, bubbling flux. It's gotta be something stupid that when I figure it out I'm going to smack my head for missing it.
 
You need more soak time at temperature. Switch to 1080 and 15N20 if you're not already using it.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
You need more soak time at temperature. Switch to 1080 and 15N20 if you're not already using it.

Hoss
Click to expand...

That is a very real possibility.

I've been primarily trying 15N20 and 1084. But also 1018 to 1018, 1095 with nickle between.
 
1084 and 1080 are essentially the same. Best to not use nickel until you figure it out.

Hoss
 
Kuraki, I am sure NM has lots of rust free boncos. It's very rare to need salt on the roads in winter. At least not in the South Eastern part of the state where I live. You could also take in the Carlsbad Caverns which everyone needs to see. If you come, come in the winter. The weather here is already too hot to make Damascus.
Years ago at a Blade show Devin T. suggested I add boric acid, (Roach Proof) to the 20 mule team borax. I think it was 1/4 boric acid to 3/4 borax. That's what I use and it works good for me. Others use kerosene, but I like to see the borax melt and bubble and dance on the billet. That lets me know it is ready to weld.
Bill Moran said it was OK to see a few sparks coming off the billet. That means he got it really hot. He used a coal forge. My gas forge won't get that hot, and I am not sure sparks of any kind are OK . But the point is, the steel needs to get hot enough to weld.
This can be very frustrating. All I needed to be successful was to in person see the right color to weld at. After that it was easy.
Some steels are easier to weld than others. I think Bill Moran used a lot of 0-1 and 1018. That is not what I like to use, but that's what we used in the ABS Damascus class and it was easy to weld. We also had the use of a 50lb power hammer and I am sure that helped.
If you can use your press at work, you might try that.
Keep trying, you will figure it out.
 
kuraki said:
Yeah, which is why it's so frustrating. I feel like I am doing everything correctly. My flame tweaked to a reducing atmosphere, evidenced by lack of scale, clean flat, bubbling flux.
Click to expand...

Smoking flux. That is hotter than just bubbling.
 
Thanks guys. I think from what you're telling me I'm just not getting hot enough or hot enough through my billet. I'll hold off on trying again until I get my new forge built. It should get to temps a lot higher/faster and more evenly than what I currently have.
 
I usually see makers forge welding with too high a temperature causing fuzzy layers caused by alloy migration. With less temperature, more soak time is required. All steels can easily be forge welded between 2100f and 2200f. I've seen Daryl Meier forge weld at around 1350-1400f, that's not his regular welding temp, he did it to show that you don't need super high temps to weld.

Hoss
 
I'm an hour north of Duluth, not that close, but not that far either. The Northern Minnesota Metalsmiths are having their annual conference the last weekend of April in itasca park. I will be demoing maki g a damascus knife and there will be a blacksmith there too. It should be a fun time.
 
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