Smith's Tri-hone stones?

ConfuseD said:
i think my problem lies somewhere around creating/removing the burr..
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I'm by no means an expert, or even mildly proficient, sharpener. I can however get a decent edge that shaves fairly cleanly... but only on one side. So I too am hung up on the burr like you are. I've tried all the tricks and methods for reducing or getting rid of them, but to no avail... I only either dull the edge or fail to remove the burr whenever I attack it. Keep trying and we're bound to eventually get it!:)

David Martin said:
Con, A blade guide/aligner is a good idea for anyone using stones . I use the narrow or wide, heavy style paper clamps depending on what angle I'm after . They work good as well . Glad to have been of assistance thats what we're here for . Your welcome and good sharpening . DM
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What are paper clamps?
 
KarlMaldensNose said:
I'm by no means an expert, or even mildly proficient, sharpener. I can however get a decent edge that shaves fairly cleanly... but only on one side. So I too am hung up on the burr like you are. I've tried all the tricks and methods for reducing or getting rid of them, but to no avail... I only either dull the edge or fail to remove the burr whenever I attack it. Keep trying and we're bound to eventually get it!:)



What are paper clamps?
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If you have tried EVERYTHING to remove a burr have you tried lightly by lightly I mean the blade is barely touching the stone stroking hte blade against the stone once or twice, if you have then try this get a block of wood (or strong felt) find the edge of the wood and slide the blade down it (like you would when using one of those crappy carbide sharpeners) do this lightly and it should remove the burr.
 
^ that method only works for large floppy burrs usually created by power sharpeners.
 
chococrazy said:
If you have tried EVERYTHING to remove a burr have you tried lightly by lightly I mean the blade is barely touching the stone stroking hte blade against the stone once or twice, if you have then try this get a block of wood (or strong felt) find the edge of the wood and slide the blade down it (like you would when using one of those crappy carbide sharpeners) do this lightly and it should remove the burr.
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knifenut1013 said:
^ that method only works for large floppy burrs usually created by power sharpeners.
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Ha... I actually just tried those two methods on my Emerson Horseman that I slimmed down tonight. The burr wasn't very big at all, but it was definitely there... and it's still there:o. Like knifenut1013 proposed, maybe those methods only work for big ass floppy burrs... although I've watched video of Murray Carter successfully using the wood trick, and his burr was created slowly and gently using waterstones, so I can't imagine his burr was too big and floppy. Who to believe... both gentlemen undoubtedly know their stuff!:confused:
 
Did Mr. Carter show the burr before and after? waterstones like diamond stones with the right touch can sharpen a edge with little to no burr so if there was a burr after he was done, slicing paper would be enough to remove it too.

The burr like sharpening stones comes in many flavors, only experience will tell you when and how the type of burr can be removed. pictures and words only tell you half the story.
 
Good point. He didn't actually show the viewers a burr, and perhaps was just demonstrating what can be tried to get rid of it should one actually form. I think he even ran his edge lightly and shallowly through some cardboard to show another possible method. Yeah, so I'm guessing with his skill that he didn't even raise much of a burr, if any at all, to begin with.
 
I've tried the shaving wood method to remove my burr and it didn't work . I think the burr I raised was just to small as I was looking w/ magnification .
Paper clamps; not clips but those that will hold 20-30 sheets of paper are usually black with silver ear that flip up and are used to open the clip . Some with 1/8" bite jaws others have 1/2" bite and are larger . One may purchase these at Wal-Mart a generous bag for only 4$ . Get some and clamp them to the spine of the blade your going to sharpen and you'll have a blade guide for pennies . Want a different angle just change to a larger clamp . Its good that your seeing and realizing what a burr is . Just keep going your close . DM
 
I think forming and removing the burr are essential for forming a sharp edge. Knifenut is very experienced and lets say "advanced" in his ability to *almost* form a burr, and get the edge very sharp. I think this takes much experience, so those that are more like me need to form the burr to be sure that the grinding has "reached the edge". Otherwise, how will you ever know when you reach the edge?

So how do you tell if you have a burr? You've seen the suggestion for using the fingernail with a stropping motion. That works, but isn't my favorite. My favorite way is simple:

Hold the knife with the blade edge on top, spine parallel to the floor. Run your thumb perpendicular to the blade to feel for sharpness. Most people have done this many times and should know what I'm describing. DO NOT move parallel to the blade. We're not trying to cut ourselves!

Next, flip the blade around so the blade edge is still up, but the handle is pointing the opposite direction. If the handle was facing you in the previous step, it should now be facing away. Again, feel for sharpness. Did it feel sharper one way than the other? If not, you have no burr.

If it *did* you've found your burr. It's on the side that your thumb strokes *away* from, when feeling for sharpness.

In summary, "If it feels sharper one direction than the other, the burr is on the side that feels sharper."

I think it's important to raise a burr on both sides of the blade, and then eliminate it from the second side, leaving you with no burr on either side. Eliminating it usually just requires 2 to 5 strokes on the side with the burr. Keep checking after every stroke or two. Make sure you don't push the burr back to the other side. If you do, eliminate the burr from that side. Keep going until there's no burr.

I was very surprised to find that I can form a somewhat hair shaving edge with the coarsest stone I have: A medium SiC, which is quite coarse at ~150 grit. The "secret" is forming the burr on both sides so that you know you've reached the edge.

From there it's a matter of polishing the edge with finer stones, again forming a burr on both sides with each finer stone. The burr will get harder and harder to feel, but it's not too bad.

Finally, the OP said something about a 23 degree edge. If that is per side, that seems like a pretty steep angle to me. Unless this is a camping blade or an axe or something, I'd start at 15 degrees per side (30 degrees total, 15 per side of the blade).

Ok, actually finally: I'm still learning and I think I do a lot better than your average guy with a knife and a stone, but I'm not an expert at all.

Brian.
 
bgentry, that is another way but I think you will find problems when the burr becomes very small. I use the finger nail method because I can feel a burr in the range of 8000 and beyond, the edge can still feel equally sharp and still have a burr.

Using high magnification is the best way though because after all the methods for finding a burr are exhausted and you think the burr is gone.... its not.

Here is a pic of a edge after being sharpened on the EEF DMT hone, I thought I was done and ready to strop until I took this pic.

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knifenut1013 said:
bgentry, that is another way but I think you will find problems when the burr becomes very small. I use the finger nail method because I can feel a burr in the range of 8000 and beyond, the edge can still feel equally sharp and still have a burr.

Using high magnification is the best way though because after all the methods for finding a burr are exhausted and you think the burr is gone.... its not.

Here is a pic of a edge after being sharpened on the EEF DMT hone, I thought I was done and ready to strop until I took this pic.

100x
PIC030.jpg
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Wow. I honestly cannot see any trace of a burr there. You are good. And speaking of magnification, I picked up this a while ago and returned it for these, the only reason being that I always hear when someone recommends a loupe that it be 10X. The lighted one that I returned is 15X and I thought maybe it was too strong to properly see what I needed to see. But the built-in lamp was super helpful and the whole set-up much more stable than the cheap-o plastic eye piece loupes I ended up with. I'm considering buying it again when I go to Lee Valley tomorrow to pick up a double-sided strop and some diamond paste.
 

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once again, thanks for everything guys! all of your tips help A LOT!

DM, the way you broke down the steps and explained it really helped me quite a bit. im proud to announce that last night i was successful in getting my edge sharp enough to shave arm hair (though it wasnt sharp enough to just pop them off with ease). i took all of the info everyone has given me and put it to use.

i used the cheapo diamond stones and freehanded it with a 23 degree angle. should i decrease to say 15 degrees if im wanting to get it a bit sharper or is 23 enough to pop hairs when my skills imrove? these are just edc knives but i do whittle wood with them as well.. it may not make a difference at all..just wondering

gentry, i also thought your post was great. i actually do ALMOST exactly what you said (i use my ring finger though..for some reason i can feel better with that one)..ill try to follow that route step to step and when i remove the burr (or think i have) ill try the fingernail as knifenut suggests

i was wondering about this second bevel again... when i begin to create this bevel do i go back to my course stone to remove steel or will a medium stone do this for me? does this make my blade sharper or more effective?
 
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Karl,
Look closely at the very edge and itstead of thinking burr think plastic deformation and it should pop out to you. Its almost like a ball or bubble of metal and in the case of the above picture its a mix of the edge not completely reaching its apex and some excess build up on the edge that I'm guessing was the result of using my finishing stone dry.

Confused,
trying to get a razor sharp edge at 23 degrees per side is much harder than at 15, at 15 your knife will also cut much better and be easier to keep sharp. You can still get a very sharp edge at 23 but you angles must very exacting, this also creates a higher degree of difficulty on your part to get it as sharp as you want it.

For the cat you could go as low as 10 degrees per side and still be okay.
 
Con, Thats great news ! Your on your way . A 23* edge angle is too blunt for me . I'd do the 15* it will cut much better . Doing a rebevel from more blunt to obtuse you'll have to go back to the coarse stone and work thru the steps just as before .
The secondary bevel, you mention can be done on your med. stone and it will show on the lower part of the bevel . It helps a blade to last much longer . Sometime try it and let us know what you think . Good sharpening . DM
 
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Good job ConfuseD! :D

I'm learning too and this is the place and the guys to learn from.

What do you guys put on standard Benchmades which mostly come out of the box with a 30*?

I put a 22.5 on first and then a 30* second before stropping.

Today I lightened my strokes and did lots more of them, at just the weight of the blade basically, and finally got my S30V, BM940, to shave a few hairs for the first time.

I'm thinking just staying with feather light strokes, in the next few sessions using medium and fine ceramics may bring that monkey to hair popping sharp.

I'm afraid of continuing with the diamond rods - I don't want to take too much steel off at this point or should I continue?

Does this sound right??
 
CZ, Congratulations, I'm glad your learning it . The med. or fine ceramic can easily sharpen any blade to pop every hair it touches .
 
knifenut. i did go with the 15* angle and i got it sharper easier. as soon as my dmt aligner comes in the mail ill see how far off my freehand sharpening is from a guided tool.

DM. thanks. i ended up going with the 15* and then went with a 20* behind it for the second bevel. it actually turned out to be sharper than before. i still have a ways to go but after 2 tries with everyones advice ive been able to shave hair both times..

i think i could get my edges even sharper if i had stones that didnt slide much...right now im having to hold 2x6 stones at about 6mm thick with one hand while i guide the blade with the other..its a bit hard to maintain a constant angle but ill continue to practice the art of blade sharpening.

question: is the second bevel im creating what people refer to as convex or microbevels? are the both the same or completely different?

question: should i use those ceramic rods after i finish with the medium diamond stone or is that a bad idea? if so how many pulls should i make or what do i look for? they are already standing in a 'v' and work both sides of the blade at once
 
Con, Good work, I applaud you . Its called a microbevel and this is very different from the convex edge you mention . If I understand the configuration of the ceramic rods you mention I would not use them to sharpen . If they were the seperate ceramic rods in a V shape then yes use them . Now, on holding your stone: just make a stone holder . Its simple . Get any decent 2x4 piece about 12" long, on one end using quarter round or base board molding and small screws attach a piece of the molding to square at the end . Lay your stone on top against that piece and attach another piece of molding at the other end of the stone . So, it holds it in place giving you a free hand and knuckle clearence . You can even trim the molding down some but apparently your stone is not very thick . This will allow you to concentrate on just the blade angle as you stroke using lite pressure . On the bottom of the 2x4 you could even glue a leather strop . DM
 
DM. great idea on the stone holder! and it wouldnt cost hardly anything to make! i even know someone who owns a leather shop!

now on the ceramic rods..they are separate rods put one in front of the other to form a 'v'. they are built into a cheap smith's edge pro compact sharpener if that makes a difference.
 
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