Smoke or fire?

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Aug 23, 2006
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313
Just a newbie asking perhaps an ignorant question... I see a number of threads of making a fire with friction to develop the necessary primitive skills necessary for survival. I find this interesting, but I see it being taught using a fire board with a specific knotch cut in it and specific types of wood for the fire board etc... My question is, If the purpose is to develop survival skills, there generally won't be access to a fireboard and specific woods so you'd have to make due with what you find where you are. :confused: Unless of course you brought that with you but a bic is smaller and easier to use. I can see the satisfaction of getting it done, but is it really a feasable survival skill if you do it with equipment you buy at the hardware andmake in your garage?
 
I use natural materials I find in my area,but for a beginer its still good practice on bought or well dried materials.It may be easier but still teaches you the basics,and helps in building your own kit latter on or if the need comes.
 
There is a list of not-too-hard, not-too-soft woods that work for making a fire-by-friction set. In my area, Eastern Cottonwood, alder, willow, the soft maples, basswood, yellow poplar -- all work
 
In a SHTF situation you will be a hell of a lot better off if you have made a coal with hardware bought items than someone that has never made one period. Chris
 
In a SHTF situation you will be a hell of a lot better off if you have made a coal with hardware bought items than someone that has never made one period. Chris

In a SHTF situation, I'll be better off than either of you 'cause I started a fire in the rain with what was lying around the back 40! :D :D :D :D

I'll agree with Deerslayer, I'm a high school teacher and I see this mentality all the time. "Doing simple math with a calculator will just give them the confidence to do simple math on their own later." No, it just makes them dependent on the calculator!

I have honors physics students who will, when asked to find 480 divided by 3, immediately reach for their calculators! They just stare at me dumbly when I tell them to put the machines away!

Yeah, it's a fun exercise to sit in your shop, cut a notch in a kiln-dried pine board, hook up an oak dowel, sharpened on the belt sander driven by a leather thong cut with a utility knife... (yeah, I'm exaggerating!) It's pretty cool, but if you're going to practice shooting free-throws, don't do it from 6' away! Shoot the dang free-throws! Keep practicing until you get it right!

Get out there, find what's lying around and make a friggin' fire! If you're really worried a bout a SHTF scenario, then practice in a SHTF scenario! That's what the military, SWAT, FBI, CIA, etc. etc. etc. do!;) If you're interested in it as an academic exercise, that's one thing, but when you're shaking from the cold and can't feel your fingertips, you honestly won't know what to do unless you've done it before.

Just my $.02 bring on the flamers....

J-
 
How in the world can you equate doing math on a calculator, that does the work for you, to building fire making materials with bought products.:confused: It is not close to the same thing, not even in the ball park, rollover, crawl, walk, run.

I think it is much better to build the muscle memory, and actually have some success so you don't get discouraged and understand all the mechanics then progress to natural materials and tenders. I also think it is a good idea to learn to use cotton balls with firesteels and build a few fires before going to natural tender. I guess you are one of those people that throw people out of the boat in the middle of the lake to teach them to swim.

Get out there, find what's lying around and make a friggin' fire! If you're really worried a bout a SHTF scenario, then practice in a SHTF scenario! That's what the military, SWAT, FBI, CIA, etc. etc. etc. do!;) -

I am military and that is NOT what we do, we start in the classroom, progress to a controlled area and then go full bore. I train Soldiers everyday and I would hate to hand them a rifle and no BRM and then say have fun in Iraq!!!!!!! Chris
 
Get out there, find what's lying around and make a friggin' fire! If you're really worried a bout a SHTF scenario, then practice in a SHTF scenario! That's what the military, SWAT, FBI, CIA, etc. etc. etc. do!;) If you're interested in it as an academic exercise, that's one thing, but when you're shaking from the cold and can't feel your fingertips, you honestly won't know what to do unless you've done it before.

Just my $.02 bring on the flamers....
I take your point about realism, if I don't accept it 100% -- right up to the "bring on the flamers."

So, with the best of intentions, do SWAT, FBI, CIA etc. always teach marksmanship with MG rounds zipping over the heads of the trainees? Is there not some merit in Brother RB's observations that does not justify visions of flame wars?
 
How in the world can you equate doing math on a calculator, that does the work for you, to building fire making materials with bought products.:confused: It is not close to the same thing, not even in the ball park, rollover, crawl, walk, run.

This is what's wrong with typed forums. (fora?) I've been looking for a good "tongue in cheek" smiley, but can't find one!

Actually, using a calculator is EXACTLY like making coals in your workshop expecting it to pay off in a "SHTF" scenario. Yes, it gives you an idea of the physics behind the situation, yes it builds "muscle memory" (Only if you can find the EXACTLY same materials in the "wild"), but if you don't get out of the shop and into the woods, you're not much better off than the guy who just watched how to do it on Bear Ghrills, or whatever the guy's name was.

As far as the military analogy, yes, you start on paper, but eventually, you do get out of the classroom, you crawl around in the woods, sleep on the rocks, dig in the sand so that when my son/brother/cousin finally gets to Iraq, he knows EXACTLY what to expect, not just what he read or saw in the barracks on power point.

My point is that making fire in the shop is an academic exercise. It provides knowledge of the physics behind the process, but unless you walk out in the wilderness and try to apply what you've learned, it's not going to help you in the proverbial "SHTF" scenario.

Respectfully (and hopefully with a bit less sarcasm...)

J-
 
Actually, using a calculator is EXACTLY like making coals in your workshop expecting it to pay off in a "SHTF" scenario. Yes, it gives you an idea of the physics behind the situation, yes it builds "muscle memory" (Only if you can find the EXACTLY same materials in the "wild"), but if you don't get out of the shop and into the woods, you're not much better off than the guy who just watched how to do it on Bear Ghrills, or whatever the guy's name was.

As far as the military analogy, yes, you start on paper, but eventually, you do get out of the classroom, you crawl around in the woods, sleep on the rocks, dig in the sand so that when my son/brother/cousin finally gets to Iraq, he knows EXACTLY what to expect, not just what he read or saw in the barracks on power point.

My point is that making fire in the shop is an academic exercise. It provides knowledge of the physics behind the process, but unless you walk out in the wilderness and try to apply what you've learned, it's not going to help you in the proverbial "SHTF" scenario.

Respectfully (and hopefully with a bit less sarcasm...)

J-
So it would be well to experience making a fire with a set built with a knife from wood found in the field and using a boot lace or paracord for the bow string. (Don't tell N. . ., but batoning is the best way to produce the fire board. :D )

(As for the military analogy, again your point is taken. Although, training is axiomatically nothing like combat. It does not prepare for terror so profound that wetting and/or soiling yourself is routine. Perhaps a better analogy is to compare the merely trained to the combat veteran.)

(Are you telling me they don't teach "multiplication tables" anymore? 3x16=48 48[0]/3=16[0]. If so, is this the result of New Math or the Bomar Brain writ large?)
 
(Are you telling me they don't teach "multiplication tables" anymore? 3x16=48 48[0]/3=16[0]. If so, is this the result of New Math or the Bomar Brain writ large?)

Don't get me started! I think they quit the multiplication tables in 5th or 6th grade and ACTUALLY start on calculator skills!

Why would you waste your time batonning a good hearth when it's easy enough to find a large hunk of flint and knap an adequate hatchet head... :D

Yeah, I like the trained -vs- veteran analogy much better than mine. I guess that's why I teach science instead of english...

J-
 
Why would you waste your time batonning a good hearth when it's easy enough to find a large hunk of flint and knap an adequate hatchet head... :D
J-
Beyond trivial glacial accidents, flint is found in one location in Ohio - 185 miles from here. Don't know if I'd make it or have the time. But I have made too many fire sets to recall using only a sheath knife. It's not hard.

Plus I don't knap flint for #@&^#. I leave that stuff to the Brownians. I would hope to find an old beer bottle in the ditch if it came to that.
 
I do believe the premise of Fire-by-friction methods, "built in a shop or garage" may be more of an assumption than reality.

In some of the recent cases I know of..... myself and Coldwood, specifically, I will cite the following:

We took a knife into the woods, gathered natural material and with that single knife (maybe 2 knives) and a piece of cord , we fabricated our Bows, drills and hearths. I made mine outdoors, in my backyard, which happens to double as acres of trees. If memory serves, Coldwood did same/same.

Oh , I know, I see this all the time, people HALF-read threads and posts, and see single words, here and there, connect them together into their own version of what they think they read.

In my case, I was spinning my drill in my garage.
It's convenient and beats being out in the dark, in my woods, trying to LEARN a new skill.

WHERE ALL ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING THEIR BOWS DRILLS AND HEARTHBOARDS WITH STORBOUGHT WOOD in their GARAGES?

I read these boards everyday, and don't recall a single one.

HOWEVER, if they had/have done so, I say, BRAVO!!
They will learn various aspects necessary to do so in the wild.

Closest Flint to me is about 2 hours west of here. You want sand, we got sand.
 
My point is that making fire in the shop is an academic exercise. It provides knowledge of the physics behind the process, but unless you walk out in the wilderness and try to apply what you've learned, it's not going to help you in the proverbial "SHTF" scenario.

J-


I do disagree with this. It prepares you much better to deal with it in the wild, just like any other learning exercise.

I would also submit that sending someone into the woods, with written instructions, and possibly poor conditions, isn't going to do anything but frustrate and demoralize them.

What is their chance for success out in the wild in the above situation, versus having already fabricated a bow and drill under controlled conditions, and produced an ember?

It actually IS going to help them, it may not gaurantee 100% chance of success but they will be much better off having produced a coal in controlled conditions.

The boyscouts teach in a class setting, in "ideal" conditions, then take it to the field. What's the difference?

I don't see anything constructive about dissuading someone from trying whether it's in their garage, on their carport or wherever.

These are people who are taking the initiative to learn via what they read and with some help via exspereince on this forum.
To tell them it's a waste of time unless you are in the cold, dark and wet, isn't very motivating.
 
Just a newbie asking perhaps an ignorant question... I see a number of threads of making a fire with friction to develop the necessary primitive skills necessary for survival. I find this interesting, but I see it being taught using a fire board with a specific knotch cut in it and specific types of wood for the fire board etc... My question is, If the purpose is to develop survival skills, there generally won't be access to a fireboard and specific woods so you'd have to make due with what you find where you are. :confused: Unless of course you brought that with you but a bic is smaller and easier to use. I can see the satisfaction of getting it done, but is it really a feasable survival skill if you do it with equipment you buy at the hardware andmake in your garage?

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I did want to address this initial post, and it is a good one, Deerslayer. No one that I know of, here, has used store bought supplies. Just to clear that up.

I like your question, because, I had asked the same thing a while back.
My issue was more along the lines of finding the exact correct wood, that it would be dry, and that the stars would be aligned.

So our discussions progressed, and several folks got me thinking.
This is a multi-faceted skill, which includes identifying different woods, knowing their characteristics and making the correct selection. Then there is the fabrication of trhe Bow n Drill, another skill, then the actual use of the Drill, another skill. So it is a series of skills and understandings to get that elusive ember. The notch isn't too specific, it's important, but, it's not like we need a laser guuided saw to cut it, a knife does fine. ;)

Now the garage part.... I have a family and a career, it's winter and the sun sets early. i could drink beer and watch TV, 'or' I could make some use of what little spare time I have, go out the garage and try my hand at a new skill? I have woods literally an acre away, and they are mine, I am fortunate. But, to use tonight as an example, it rained, turned to snow, and it's about 20 degrees out there. and pretty dammed dark on top of it.
I worked a long day, and am not going out there in the woods to spin a bow and drill tonight to prove how tough I am.
When spring arrives, and/or the next time I go camping, I'll grab some material and work at it, in the wild, and be better off already knowing the "drill" (pun intended). :D

Nothing is being formally taught here, and nothing is being taught in any certain way, for any certain reason. We did our own research, and put knife to wood.
We are receiving guidance from our friends/experienced folks and it is paying off. It would be great if they were our neighbors, or just a mile down the road, and could give hands on expereince, but they are in New York, Oregon, Canada, New Zealand, and Brazil, just to name a few places.
It's actually pretty amazing to be able to tap all this experience.

Hope this helps answer your questions.
Again, I asked similar ones a while ago.
 
Great point skunk, And your very Right, its great the welth of information thats out there is just a question away.
 
I do disagree with this. It prepares you much better to deal with it in the wild, just like any other learning exercise.

I would also submit that sending someone into the woods, with written instructions, and possibly poor conditions, isn't going to do anything but frustrate and demoralize them.

What is their chance for success out in the wild in the above situation, versus having already fabricated a bow and drill under controlled conditions, and produced an ember?

It actually IS going to help them, it may not gaurantee 100% chance of success but they will be much better off having produced a coal in controlled conditions.

The boyscouts teach in a class setting, in "ideal" conditions, then take it to the field. What's the difference?

I don't see anything constructive about dissuading someone from trying whether it's in their garage, on their carport or wherever.

These are people who are taking the initiative to learn via what they read and with some help via exspereince on this forum.
To tell them it's a waste of time unless you are in the cold, dark and wet, isn't very motivating.

Wow didn't really mean to start a fire here, just gaining insight on motivations.
Not fully understanding the compu-giz here I can't link you back to the pictures I saw, but they were of a 1x with a nice hole drilled in it and a notch cut with what looked like a saw. (didn't actually show the action of cutting the notch) I saw one today with a hand drawn picture from a link that looked a lot like a 1x. going back and clicking on the link I did learn that the author did refer to the fact that a branch could be used instead of a board. so yeah I guess I should have read a bit farther.
as far as "waste of time" who said that? I guess I was asking if there was graduation from the 1x board in the garage to actual back yard ( or back woods) success in this practice. our primitive forefathers discovered and perfected this technique i presume because they didn't have to be back in the office or factory on monday and the superbowl wouldn't be wasting thier time on sunday... And if they didn't... well it's gonna be another long cold winter...
IN survival situations, if you're planned ahead enough to have your knife to baton a fireboard I'd suppose the chances are good you'd have a bic or matches stashed somewhere as well.
If the motivation is to see if one could do it, well then i suppose one could do it while watching the superbowl ( in the garage of course);)
You posted while I was typing... looks like we're pretty much on the same page here. And yes there is great benifit in learning from others experinces and insight. A wise man learns from his mistakes.. wiser still if he learns from others mistakes.
 
Actually, using a calculator is EXACTLY like making coals in your workshop expecting it to pay off in a "SHTF" scenario. Yes, it gives you an idea of the physics behind the situation, yes it builds "muscle memory" (Only if you can find the EXACTLY same materials in the "wild"), but if you don't get out of the shop and into the woods, you're not much better off than the guy who just watched how to do it on Bear Ghrills, or whatever the guy's name was.

As far as the military analogy, yes, you start on paper, but eventually, you do get out of the classroom, you crawl around in the woods, sleep on the rocks, dig in the sand so that when my son/brother/cousin finally gets to Iraq, he knows EXACTLY what to expect, not just what he read or saw in the barracks on power point.

My point is that making fire in the shop is an academic exercise. It provides knowledge of the physics behind the process, but unless you walk out in the wilderness and try to apply what you've learned, it's not going to help you in the proverbial "SHTF" scenario.

Respectfully (and hopefully with a bit less sarcasm...)

J-


I think the calculator ananlogy is way off. I would expect your honors students to be able to do math beause thay should have been learning math since pre school. But they diddnt just start out dividing double and triple digit numbers.


They started out small, as the garage or fireplace fire starter does, then progressed to more and more complex problems, this is how we learn


Someone who makes a fireboard out of a pine board and dowell is staring small and should continue to progress to dry natural wood in warm weather then mabey wet weather etc. etc. etc.

No one is implying that simply learning how to do something in the garage is mastering a skill but it is a begining.


They guy who practiced firebuilding in the garage is better off than the guy who never practiced at all, and the guy who practiced in the field is better off than both

And the guy who discourages people from practicing in the garage is Just Wrong :D
 
(Just catching up on posts that happened when I was off the forum :) )

If I recall correctly, Tom Brown Jr. supports the idea of learning how to make fire by friction by using less than ideal materials. He contends that in order to succeed, you must tune your techniques and this 'tuning' will carry over to more optimal materials. I humbly disagree with this approach. In my experience, the single biggest factor that prevents someone from succeeding is that they don't believe they can do it.

By hedging your bets, by using optimal materials, under optimal conditions, you will find out that, you, too, can do it. Once you know this, half the battle is won.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you only use store bought materials, or that you have to use specific types of wood found in the bush, that you have to learn to identify.

With experience you will learn the qualities that you require to make a successful friction fire set, and yes, you can do this without a knife.

Doc
 
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