Sneaky Pete Review & Handle Mods

[ncrockclimb]

Good stuff, Phil! I always enjoy your threads!

 

[joarthur]

Thank you for your excellent post, Phil. In your reviews you often encourage us to understand our own criteria for evaluating why a handle design “fits so well that we’ll want to use it hard for any application it was designed for.” Even if we aren’t drawn to the Sneaky Pete, your post gives us a model for how to do that. In this review, I suspect you may have increased interest in trying a Sneaky Pete, though for me it would have to be one without a ramp.

Like you, I also bought a Bark River with a ramp. What a customer-limiting design feature! While no doubt just right for some hands, Mount Ramp’s sharp summit couldn’t have been better placed to jab my thumb pad.

You mention how acquiring your Sneaky Pete started a theme for you. Though you don’t go into details about this theme, I assume it’s connected to what motivated you to modify your knife. If so, then at least with regard to handle design, I suspect I have been pursuing a similar theme.

My theme started almost a year ago when I acquired a Runt. After that I began looking for knives with handles and blade profiles like Runts, only bigger. The Palmer was close, but I couldn’t squeeze three fingers onto the handle. Then Allen introduced his Big Palmer and models based on it's handle. Finally, Runt-shaped handles that I can get three fingers on.

It looks to me as though with the Sneaky Phil, you may have developed the next size up in Runt-shaped handles, models built on the Runt “last”, so to speak. [Thanks Peter -- Prom52 -- for contributing that image.] If so, perhaps it’s fair to say that the Runt-last series goes Runt, Palmer, Big Palmer, Sneaky Phil.

As I see it, the comfort-making features of the handle shapes of these four models are:

(1) How the arched curve on top of the handle fits into the concave area of the palm, as you describe. As well as adding to a handle's comfort, the arch increases the surface area of the handle in contact with the skin, thus increasing grip security, especially when the handle is wet.

(2) How the downward curving aft section of the handle prevents the butt end from biting into the palm. Big Palmer handles accomplish that for me; your modifications to your Sneaky Pete's pommel do that for you.

(3) How the swale at the top front of the handle provides a place for the thumb pad to push against, contributing to both torque control and thumb leverage.

I definitely think you were right to modify your knife, though I agree with Andy that his pommel looks better. Your modifications were necessary, however, given your use of grips with your thumb over the butt of the handle. To me, your modifications are an excellent example of form following function. And in my experience, new designs that follow a real function gain aesthetic acceptance over time.

As for aesthetics, I think the original Sneaky Pete pommel (pre-July 2014) looks better than those with the chamfer. Big Palmer pommels resemble those of the original Sneaky Pete. As for the sharp angle cut of the pommel, Allen couldn’t have cut the Big Palmer’s pommel better to fit my right hand. Because of an accident, my pinky is the only finger on my right hand that still has full strength, mobility, and feeling, though it’s angled inward. Far from being left out of the party for a three-finger grip, it’s the life of the party, even though it's not on the handle. The angle of the pommel, which is exactly the same as that of my pinky, along with the Big Palmer's fatter version of the Runt shape, actually allows the Big Palmer and Lil Ness to lock into my hands.

I mention this to support your modification. The function that produces the right practical form varies so much among us. Sometimes we get lucky, as I did with my fat-handled (.859”) Big Palmer, sometimes we may have to make the changes ourselves.

Well done, Phil.

 

[Fiddleback]

Jim. Many of the knives in the line happen to come FROM the Runt Handle. First and foremost was the Bushfinger, which was drawn after squinting and holding the Runt drawing at a low angle. The Bushfinger was like toppling a dominoe. After that one, I re-designed every knife in the line except the Ladyfinger and Nessmuk to take the sinuous curve out of the spine, which is ironic, since the Runt has a sinous spine. In those weeks I re-designed the Bushcrafter, and Woodsman too.

 

[Comprehensivist]

Phil,

I have two questions...

2. On your process, I'm surprised you were able to remove the forward hump with a file. In my first years of retirement, I hung 20-30 hours a week in a Cali, Community College, machine tool program. We were taught, and it was demonstrated anything above about rockwell 45, (as I recall the #) was not to be machined, but taken to the grinding room. In fact, we were taught to use a file when grabbing a piece of steel of unknown heat treat. If the file slid off it was above 45 and therefore a conventional "high speed steel"/carbide end mill or file wouldn't touch it. The Forge's heavy use of belt sanders speaks to that, given how hard these blades are. What sort of file did you use?

Hey Tom,

I apologize for forgetting to reply to your 2nd question the last time around. The file that I used is to remove the ramp and the top corner on the back was a half round double cut bastard file. It is a basic $9 Lowe's "Cobalt" house brand file that the package said is OK for metal. Even though the knife is through-hardened to HRc 60 +/-, a normal metal file will still be able to bite on sharp peaks or edges on the narrow cross-section of the blade thickness. Each pass of the file leaves a coarse finish that is in effect a mirror image of the file teeth with tiny peaks and valleys. On the next pass, the file bites on the tops of the tiny peaks and the process repeats itself. You can see the coarse finish the file leaves in a couple of the photos. I started with medium grade emory cloth to remove the file marks and worked through various sandpaper grits up to 600 for the final finish.

I wouldn't want to try to file like this across a wide section of hardened steel because the file teeth would tend to skate across the surface rather than bite in. Situations like that are when a surface grinder is the appropriate way to go. I think that circumstance may be what your instructors were referring to. Hardened steel can be machined on a lathe with the proper tooling. Look up "hard turning" and CBN (i.e. cubic boron nitride) inserts to see what is possible these days. Those inserts are expensive, so you probably won't see them in most community college machine shops.

Good stuff, Phil! I always enjoy your threads!

Thanks for the kind words.

Thank you for your excellent post, Phil. In your reviews you often encourage us to understand our own criteria for evaluating why a handle design “fits so well that we’ll want to use it hard for any application it was designed for.” Even if we aren’t drawn to the Sneaky Pete, your post gives us a model for how to do that. In this review, I suspect you may have increased interest in trying a Sneaky Pete, though for me it would have to be one without a ramp.

Like you, I also bought a Bark River with a ramp. What a customer-limiting design feature! While no doubt just right for some hands, Mount Ramp’s sharp summit couldn’t have been better placed to jab my thumb pad.

You mention how acquiring your Sneaky Pete started a theme for you. Though you don’t go into details about this theme, I assume it’s connected to what motivated you to modify your knife. If so, then at least with regard to handle design, I suspect I have been pursuing a similar theme.

My theme started almost a year ago when I acquired a Runt. After that I began looking for knives with handles and blade profiles like Runts, only bigger. The Palmer was close, but I couldn’t squeeze three fingers onto the handle. Then Allen introduced his Big Palmer and models based on it's handle. Finally, Runt-shaped handles that I can get three fingers on.

It looks to me as though with the Sneaky Phil, you may have developed the next size up in Runt-shaped handles, models built on the Runt “last”, so to speak. [Thanks Peter -- Prom52 -- for contributing that image.] If so, perhaps it’s fair to say that the Runt-last series goes Runt, Palmer, Big Palmer, Sneaky Phil.

As I see it, the comfort-making features of the handle shapes of these four models are:

(1) How the arched curve on top of the handle fits into the concave area of the palm, as you describe. As well as adding to a handle's comfort, the arch increases the surface area of the handle in contact with the skin, thus increasing grip security, especially when the handle is wet.

(2) How the downward curving aft section of the handle prevents the butt end from biting into the palm. Big Palmer handles accomplish that for me; your modifications to your Sneaky Pete's pommel do that for you.

(3) How the swale at the top front of the handle provides a place for the thumb pad to push against, contributing to both torque control and thumb leverage.

I definitely think you were right to modify your knife, though I agree with Andy that his pommel looks better. Your modifications were necessary, however, given your use of grips with your thumb over the butt of the handle. To me, your modifications are an excellent example of form following function. And in my experience, new designs that follow a real function gain aesthetic acceptance over time.

As for aesthetics, I think the original Sneaky Pete pommel (pre-July 2014) looks better than those with the chamfer. Big Palmer pommels resemble those of the original Sneaky Pete. As for the sharp angle cut of the pommel, Allen couldn’t have cut the Big Palmer’s pommel better to fit my right hand. Because of an accident, my pinky is the only finger on my right hand that still has full strength, mobility, and feeling, though it’s angled inward. Far from being left out of the party for a three-finger grip, it’s the life of the party, even though it's not on the handle. The angle of the pommel, which is exactly the same as that of my pinky, along with the Big Palmer's fatter version of the Runt shape, actually allows the Big Palmer and Lil Ness to lock into my hands.

I mention this to support your modification. The function that produces the right practical form varies so much among us. Sometimes we get lucky, as I did with my fat-handled (.859”) Big Palmer, sometimes we may have to make the changes ourselves.

Well done, Phil.

Hey Jim,

Your response is almost as verbose as my review. Just kidding my friend. You make some excellent observations about the Runt and similar handle shapes.

The theme of my collection that I did not clarify in intro section has been Shadetree burlap handles. I love the look, texture, and vibrant colors they produce.

When I do a review, I always try to present a lot of observations about the subject knife and comparisons to other knives so that the readers are left with some useful info to think about and come to their own conclusions. You obviously put a lot of thought and analysis into what does and doesn't work for you. It sounds like Allen's Big Palmer handle is a great fit for you. The cool about that is that Allen makes a family of models with that handle now. Andy has families of similar knives and handles too that make the decisions easier once you find one that works for you. I like handles with a curved top that fits into my palm and rounded pommels the best. Other folks like the straighter spine square butt handles. We are all different in our preferences and that is what makes the discussion interesting.

Thanks again for the thoughtful and detailed reply.

Phil

 

[TomR2]

"Hey Tom,

I apologize for forgetting to reply to your 2nd question the last time around. The file that I used is to remove the ramp and the top corner on the back was a half round double cut bastard file. It is a basic $9 Lowe's "Cobalt" house brand file that the package said is OK for metal. Even though the knife is through-hardened to HRc 60 +/-, a normal metal file will still be able to bite on sharp peaks or edges on the narrow cross-section of the blade thickness. Each pass of the file leaves a coarse finish that is in effect a mirror image of the file teeth with tiny peaks and valleys. On the next pass, the file bites on the tops of the tiny peaks and the process repeats itself. You can see the coarse finish the file leaves in a couple of the photos. I started with medium grade emory cloth to remove the file marks and worked through various sandpaper grits up to 600 for the final finish.

I wouldn't want to try to file like this across a wide section of hardened steel because the file teeth would tend to skate across the surface rather than bite in. Situations like that are when a surface grinder is the appropriate way to go. I think that circumstance may be what your instructors were referring to. Hardened steel can be machined on a lathe with the proper tooling. Look up "hard turning" and CBN (i.e. cubic boron nitride) inserts to see what is possible these days. Those inserts are expensive, so you probably won't see them in most community college machine shops."

No worries and thanks Phil. I indeed spent a lot of time in the grinding room, lots of small projects and one that required half a semester playing with tolerances to .xxxx". Few times I attempted to file anything above 40-50C, it seemed impossible, though I get you might bull your way through that thinner edge. We were taught about the fancier cutters and inserts, but did not have the need to use, as projects were mostly mild steel we carburized, then hardened, and drew, or 43xx kinds of stock with oil quench. Milled some O1, heat treated, and ground blades for a couple infill shoulder planes... Sorry to go on. Miss it.

 

[willic]

Phil,

Thanks for the great review! I resisted the Sneaky Pete profile for quite a while, then one day decided to give it a try. That was the beginning... I LOVE THE SNEAKY PETE! I have more Sneakys in my collection than any other profile. I prefer to carry strong side, right behind my hip bone IWB. Rick Lowe has mad some super comfortable leather. This one knife takes on so many completely different personalities with blade thickness and handle thickness differences. I'm currently carrying one that's 1/8" SFT and mid sized handles. I really try to stay away from this word when describing knives, but Andy's Sneaky Pete is one sexy knife!

-Will

 

[willic]

Jim. Many of the knives in the line happen to come FROM the Runt Handle. First and foremost was the Bushfinger, which was drawn after squinting and holding the Runt drawing at a low angle. The Bushfinger was like toppling a dominoe. After that one, I re-designed every knife in the line except the Ladyfinger and Nessmuk to take the sinuous curve out of the spine, which is ironic, since the Runt has a sinous spine. In those weeks I re-designed the Bushcrafter, and Woodsman too.

Andy, I love to hear you tell about how you came up with profiles! Thanks for sharing!!!

-Will

 

[Hone]

Phil,

Thanks for the great review! I resisted the Sneaky Pete profile for quite a while, then one day decided to give it a try. That was the beginning... I LOVE THE SNEAKY PETE! I have more Sneakys in my collection than any other profile. I prefer to carry strong side, right behind my hip bone IWB. Rick Lowe has mad some super comfortable leather. This one knife takes on so many completely different personalities with blade thickness and handle thickness differences. I'm currently carrying one that's 1/8" SFT and mid sized handles. I really try to stay away from this word when describing knives, but Andy's Sneaky Pete is one sexy knife!

-Will

I 100% agree with you Will. I love the Sneaky Pete. The Sneaky Pete is the model that drew me to Fiddleback Forge and was the first custom knife I ever purchased. As a matter of fact, I believe I sold you that knife. Might have to offer an arm and a leg to buy it back one day if you still have it .

 

[willic]

I 100% agree with you Will. I love the Sneaky Pete. The Sneaky Pete is the model that drew me to Fiddleback Forge and was the first custom knife I ever purchased. As a matter of fact, I believe I sold you that knife. Might have to offer an arm and a leg to buy it back one day if you still have it .

2014 0509 08 – Sneaky Pete with Ziricote over black g10 with a yellow pinstripe, Tapered tang, convex on 5/32” 01 spalted steel

She's actually in my kitchen window seal, just got stropped! BEAUTIFUL example!!!!!!!

 

[dogbone11]

Phil,

Thanks for the great review! I resisted the Sneaky Pete profile for quite a while, then one day decided to give it a try. That was the beginning... I LOVE THE SNEAKY PETE! I have more Sneakys in my collection than any other profile. I prefer to carry strong side, right behind my hip bone IWB. Rick Lowe has mad some super comfortable leather. This one knife takes on so many completely different personalities with blade thickness and handle thickness differences. I'm currently carrying one that's 1/8" SFT and mid sized handles. I really try to stay away from this word when describing knives, but Andy's Sneaky Pete is one sexy knife!

-Will

Will,

Can you post a photo of the IWB sheath for the Sneaky?

Paul

 

[FeralGentleman]

I'm not one to get hung up in the nuances of the ergos in simple tool handles. The good Lord blessed me with pretty adaptable appendages of average size that most things I come across have a good enough proportion, balance and "feel" to serve its function.

But, I always enjoy your posts and reviews Phil. It is nice to see someone with the ability to articulate a refined taste in a subject area. These post take a lot of work and add much to the knowledge base on the forums. They are appreciated, insightful and I usually learn something new.

I like the rounded pommel on your alterations of the sneaky pete, but I personally find utility in the thumb ramp when manipulating my thumb around and on it for various tasks. Hell, if it's good enough for J-dog it's good enough for me.

I think many have reached the same conclusion that overall the handle on the SP, big SP and (for me) the asp are a winner. If I could change one thing on my SP it would be the addition of a top swedge like I have on my asp and big sneaky. I would add this feature not only because I like to 'operate' in my free time but they throw great sparks on a ferro rod and I don't have to mung up any blade length starting a fire.

Thank you again Phil for your contributions. Do I see a grinder in your future?

 

[joarthur]

Thank you, Andy, for your response. I'm surprised the Runt came first.

At Phil's suggestion I bought a Woodsman. It arrived about an hour ago. I took some pics then put it to work right away. For a long time I've been searching for a knife with a handle long enough to give me a full, four-finger grip, and this is it. Thanks for making it, and thanks for giving us a peek into how it, the Bushfinger, and other knives in the line came about.

Jim. Many of the knives in the line happen to come FROM the Runt Handle. First and foremost was the Bushfinger, which was drawn after squinting and holding the Runt drawing at a low angle. The Bushfinger was like toppling a dominoe. After that one, I re-designed every knife in the line except the Ladyfinger and Nessmuk to take the sinuous curve out of the spine, which is ironic, since the Runt has a sinous spine. In those weeks I re-designed the Bushcrafter, and Woodsman too.

 

[joarthur]

Phil,

Verbosity -- true. I didn't have any pics, so I had to go the thousand-word-per-picture route. More coming in a PM.

Jim

 

[hasco]

Thanks again Phil for another stellar review. You continually set a high bar for informative reviews with great photos. I really appreciated the step by step photos and well written account of your modifications as well as your reasoning behind them. I think the finished product of the sneaky Phil looks incredible. I have only owned one sneaky pete and it looked almost exactly like yours. It was early on in my Fiddleback obsession. I actually liked the feel of the thumb ramp but something about the knife overall didn't wow me. I sold it without ever using it. I don't think it had anything to do with the shape though. When I spend this much on a knife, even a liner color that I don't like can throw me off and make me want to sell it. I think I would really like one in the right configuration as I do love a spear point and the handle felt very comfortable in my hand.

I think it is really cool that you were able to make the modifications to the knife to make it suit your likings. Well done and great review!!!