So I'm a little confused on the difference of survival and bushcraft knives,

I see knives like my Ka-Bar 1271 or ESEE 5 as "survival" knives. Big, heavy tools that can do it all except maybe the most delicate chores. Bushcraft knives, IMHO, are more purpose built for finer work. There is a lot of overlap and most of the terms are marketing like everyone else said. I'll be honest, the looks are as big a factor in my purchase as is intended use.
 
I will say that my path I expect was fairly typical on the survival/bushcraft thing. I always carried folders. Even camping I seldom had a fixed blade with me for years. I would often have an axe with me car camping which is the dominant form of camping that I do.

Being younger, my first custom knife was geared toward hunting applications which I routinely did. Then the survival thing kicked in and I chose a number of blades but they all had 1/4" blade stock and tended toward the a fighting knife bowie type design (think Randall, EK). But my most loved Randall was in fact a more normal blade (Jack Crider Special). Things stopped there for the most part until I joined BF. I started with the heavy 1/4" blades like the BK-2 and ESEE.... then moved toward a middle blade stock thickness for most everything I am likely to do with a knife. I have choppers, but I seldom need to chop anything other than machete work. I am in a machete phase now and like both the heavier and lighter machetes for many woods applications along with a folder and a middle sized fixed blade. But you can see where the influence came from.... survival meant fighting or possible fighting with a knife and woods activities leaned toward middle sized blades.

There is obviously urban versus rural choices and cutting applications in a survival event. Rural would probably lean more toward bushcrafting and urban more toward larger heavier knives for prying and fighting. But I am no knife fighter, so that is a fantasy.

I have a similar background, and "path" to you it would seem.

I started with a BK2, and while I still have it, I don't use it all that much. It is a great knife, and will be something I will value when I need something like that, the reality is that I'd rather carry two knives that are more specialized instead of just the BK2. I seldom chop with anything (folding saws are many times more useful for the location I am in and the amount of wood I need for an evening campfire). So my "Nessmuk trio" is a folding saw, a larger blade, and a smaller one.

And I may be in the minority, but I don't really think about "urban survival" all that much. When I think about that type of stuff, I'm usually at/around my apt, so I would have access to all of my tools, so I worry less about an "urban survival" knife. And like you, I have 0 knife fighting skills, so that doesn't matter much to me either.

BK2, BK7 survival knives that can be used for bushcraft IMHO

BK16 and BK12 Bushcraft knives that can be used for survival....IMHO

Thicker bladed overbuilt sharpened prybar type knives with full tangs tend to evoke thoughts of survival knives to me....

Thinner, lighter bladed knives with a tendency to overvalue ergonomics evoke thoughts of bushcraft knives to me.....

but as always, my opinions are worthless to anyone but myself and I fully expect to be found in the minority of folks once the dust settles....

The big callout here is that I think that individuals comfort level with the tool cannot be understated. People used to using larger knives for things are quite proficient with them, while others are used to using, and are better with smaller blades. Another big differentiator is location, as different tools work much better in different locations. This to me mostly means that every knife owner should practice the things they think is likely that they will need to do with the tool BEFORE they need to do it. That way you learn now to use it most effectively. And while i'm no expert (particularly compared to many here), but I feel just about as comfortable performing most basic tasks with my BK9 as I do with my Mora, it just takes different approaches to solve the same problem.

What you've said is absolutely true, that a "survival knife" can be used for bushcraft, and the reverse is true as well. The difference is that one may be more suited to the tasks needed than the other.

One thing I question though... is it possible to "overvalue" ergonomics? Myself, its a big factor in blade choice, as when you use the tool for a few hours, you notice any problems with them. So from that point of view it seems hard to overvalue it, but I'm open to being wrong :p.
 
just a trend I've seen developing over the last few years.... MANY quality knives are often overlooked due specifically to ergonomics... I've been bushcrafting for YEARS and short of filming the next series of " Alone " I've seldom used a knife in a manner that borderline ergonomics would make or break me...

First world problems... good and good enough have slipped by the wayside in our quest for " perfect " and that drive I think is what I ment to sum up in my short statement about overvalueing ergonomics....

Even though 99.95% of users will never do more than whittle a few sticks while sitting around a 1 log split wood fire and call it Bushcraft they still want that holy grail knife that could be used to build Fort Wilderness in minimal time, with minimal calorie expenditure, with minimal discomfort....that leaves a lot of middle of the road knives which are by all rights GREAT knives out of contention, even though they will preform FAR above the abilities of the average user......

if that makes any sense to ya.....

Just my opinion.... not worth taking as fact, everyone will have slightly different views and that's ok
 
So I'm a little confused on the difference of survival and bushcraft knives, could someone enlighten me and give me some reasonably priced examples? TIA

Anything Mora for a fixed blade or Opinel for a folder.

You can use bushcraft knives to survive and survival knives in the bush so it's all just jargon anyway...

;):D
 
Given Brian Jones' very good breakdown of the difference between Survival and Bushcraft, a few key questions come to mind.

How many instances of actual "Survival" situations are people experiencing?

In what percentage of these situations have the people involved brought along a "Survival" knife, and what percentage brought a smaller, more "Bushcraft" oriented knife? I assume some large percentage brought no knife.

Did those who brought a smaller "Bushcraft" knife, or no knife, do so because carrying a "Survival" size or style knife was either impractical due to size, design, or their lack of familiarity with the knife in question?

What types of "survival" tasks were these people exposed to, and for what duration?

Did those who had a "Bushcraft" knife in these situations feel under-prepared, or that their knife was not up to the tasks they faced.

What percentage of these "Survival" situations were fairly predictable and allowed for better preparation and more equipment than a long-bladed survival knife?

I was just wondering what real-world survival situations looked like for the most part. I have a few knifes I cycle thru that are always on me, and if I were to suddenly encounter a "survival" situation in the course of an average day one of these knives (Enzo Trapper, Enzo Nordic, Fallkniven F1, Fallkniven Kolt) would be on my person naturally, so this is what I'd have to use to survive. If I were going for an extended camping/hunting trip in some remote location, or traveling thru a location that would suggest a high level of survival-readiness, I would be packing one of these knives, a hatchet or machete, and probably a firearm, along with other "survival gear" like a lighter, brush saw, folding shovel, ...etc. This would seem to indicate, at least in my experience and behavior, that in the event of a "survival" situation in a truly remote location I would have a larger palette of tools to draw from than if I am traveling 75 miles on a short jaunt, or going into the woods on a one-day bear or deer hunt. If weight was a real issue, I would still be packing one of the small knives rather than a larger, less familiar knife.

Don't get me wrong, I love anything that's sharp, including cheese and wit. I just feel the term "Survival Knife" is silly and probably aimed at those who are likely to be the worst-prepared for a survival situation. I believe a knife you are extremely familiar with and that is always on you is a better survival knife option than a Buck Bushmaster 184 because if the survival circumstance one encounters is anything other than totally unexpected there are a variety of small, lightweight tools that would be better options for non-typical knife functions than a bulky knife that tries to do everything but in the end does nothing very well. When you add the difficulty factor of carrying a 6" or larger knife daily (for practical and legal reasons), unless you live in the bush a smaller knife is probably going to be the one you end up using in a real survival circumstance (in spite of what the tv shows and internet advertise).

Just my two cents. As I mentioned, I love knives of every flavor, but there are only a few knives I use daily and consider indispensable. None of them exceed 4.25 inches in length.
 
In all my years of practicing and discussing surival and bushcraft, to use the common terms, I've boiled the definitions down this way, at least for when I am using the terms:

Survival = short term, improvising and doing whatever you have to do to stay alive until you are rescued. The primary objective is getting out, and/or getting rescued. Signaling is a key to this, to give an example of a skill you need to know.

Bushcraft = wilderness living. Its long term. It's a way of life. The goal is to stay in the wilderness, not try to get out.

Either one of these could turn into the other, depending on many external and/or internal factors.

So, even more simply, the goal of survival is to get out of the wilderness, the goal of bushcraft is to stay in the wilderness.

I've been struggling with this for a few days...

I don't want this to sound as snarky as it will end up and that's a problem for which I'll just apologize up front.

My definitions....

Survival = what happens when people fail to plan and/or make poor risk decisions.

Bushcraft = a form of recreational backcountry travel that is comparatively high impact on the location due to its reliance on harvesting local resources.

Regarding survival, I just don't know many real world situations in which people fall out of the sky into a survival situation. They (we) all start out in the front country and make a series of decisions that take us into the backcountry. Some of these decisions are made in ignorance. Others are well informed acceptance of risk. I spend most of my outdoor time in the White Mountains of NH and we have stories every year of hikers, skiers and climbers getting lost and some who perish. I'm not trying to be cold or hard hearted. I embrace the ethic of "freedom of the hills" and support everybody's right to walk into the wild places to meet their maker if they choose. But, it's a decision to go there and what you carry and what you choose to do or not do are all a part of it. Gazzillions of people move safely through these places with nothing more than a simple SAK. And they sometimes screw up and nearly all of them survive using what's in their kit. Better to talk about wilderness or backcountry survival kits imo. That and good risk decision making.

Regarding bushcraft, I practice and play around with many of the techniques, particularly around fire making but I almost never use them in the wild places I go. None of us are guilt free in terms of our impact globally and we cross that threshold as soon as we buy a knife and drive a car to a trail head. And nearly all of us are recreating on some form of public land that is managed under some management plan in trust for public (read: the rest of us). I'm not dissing bushcraft and I recognize there are places where it can be done sustainably (relative to the local habitat). But generally speaking, in the lower 48 the practices if done by everybody just impact the land. This is easy to see (and has been since before the term was popular) but bushwhacking off trail in the Whites. Follow the terrain along brooks and you'll find common use campsite and those camp sites will often be trashed with semi-harvested wood and charred fire pits. Living off the land is fine if its your land. But not on public land. That's just mucking up the experience for some other guy and his kids.

Please note, I'm sorry this may sound harsher than it is intended. Perhaps the softer way of saying it is that bushcraft is a form of recreation, just like backcountry skiing or rock climbing is. Great skill. Fun and gratifying and people should explore it and learn it. It's one of many ways to move through the backcountry.
 
Ron Hood had the rule "Nuff." Good Nuff, strong Nuff, etc. when talking about survival. His early videos emphasized just being able to do things "good enough to get by and get home."

When you get into Wilderness Living Skills (which has been my term - for decades - for what others now call "bushcraft"), you get into more refined skills that take longer to do and are geared towards setting you up for a longer term stay in the wilderness.
 
I've been struggling with this for a few days...

I don't want this to sound as snarky as it will end up and that's a problem for which I'll just apologize up front.

My definitions....

Survival = what happens when people fail to plan and/or make poor risk decisions.

Bushcraft = a form of recreational backcountry travel that is comparatively high impact on the location due to its reliance on harvesting local resources.

Regarding survival, I just don't know many real world situations in which people fall out of the sky into a survival situation. They (we) all start out in the front country and make a series of decisions that take us into the backcountry. Some of these decisions are made in ignorance. Others are well informed acceptance of risk. I spend most of my outdoor time in the White Mountains of NH and we have stories every year of hikers, skiers and climbers getting lost and some who perish. I'm not trying to be cold or hard hearted. I embrace the ethic of "freedom of the hills" and support everybody's right to walk into the wild places to meet their maker if they choose. But, it's a decision to go there and what you carry and what you choose to do or not do are all a part of it. Gazzillions of people move safely through these places with nothing more than a simple SAK. And they sometimes screw up and nearly all of them survive using what's in their kit. Better to talk about wilderness or backcountry survival kits imo. That and good risk decision making.

Regarding bushcraft, I practice and play around with many of the techniques, particularly around fire making but I almost never use them in the wild places I go. None of us are guilt free in terms of our impact globally and we cross that threshold as soon as we buy a knife and drive a car to a trail head. And nearly all of us are recreating on some form of public land that is managed under some management plan in trust for public (read: the rest of us). I'm not dissing bushcraft and I recognize there are places where it can be done sustainably (relative to the local habitat). But generally speaking, in the lower 48 the practices if done by everybody just impact the land. This is easy to see (and has been since before the term was popular) but bushwhacking off trail in the Whites. Follow the terrain along brooks and you'll find common use campsite and those camp sites will often be trashed with semi-harvested wood and charred fire pits. Living off the land is fine if its your land. But not on public land. That's just mucking up the experience for some other guy and his kids.

Please note, I'm sorry this may sound harsher than it is intended. Perhaps the softer way of saying it is that bushcraft is a form of recreation, just like backcountry skiing or rock climbing is. Great skill. Fun and gratifying and people should explore it and learn it. It's one of many ways to move through the backcountry.

I don't want to sound snarky either, and my guess is your skin is thick enough to handle this.

Survival doesn't happen when you fall from the sky. Some professions come with a high probability of being in a survival situation. Like a big game hunting guide in Alaska. A client might become extremely ill or get injured and be socked in by a nasty storm. What happens when they need to stay put a few days before rescue? They survive and you better have the right tools or it might not turn out so well for you and the client. Just a regular hunter might get turned around for a few nights. On top of a good set of tools it's a good idea to have some woods knowledge on edibles and other skills. Some of them skills will need to be implemented with the right tools. One of them tools is what's "marketed" as a "survival" knife. You wouldn't want a filet knife in that situation would you? At that point the word filet would be some fancy marketing term if you had no use for a filet knife.

Knives are like any other tool. You need to match them to what you expect them to be used for.

I can and do get by fine with a buck reaper. It's thin, light, agile and holds an edge very long. Any survival or "bushcraft" doings I will ever do can be done by it and it is a very tough knife that weighs half as much as the next "survival" knife. I usually have a Mora on me too so if my huge Reaper is too much I could always use that one and save myself the fun making for having such a huge useless blade ;)

I hope you don't take that the wrong way. That's just how I see it. I know I'm good enough that I could get by with a good folder and maybe a small saw. It really all boils down to individual skill and what they know, not what they carry. A proper knife eliminates variables like breakage, saves time and can do more.

So I carry a proper knife for what I do with what skills I have. Some of the knives sold as "survival" knives are just too fat, long and heavy for me. I am not saying I will not get one or have not had them in the past. I am just saying some people might have a legitimate reason to have one. That or they like playing with them at the wood pile for fun. Nothing wrong with that either. We all pass the time in different ways.
 
How many instances of actual "Survival" situations are people experiencing?

In what percentage of these situations have the people involved brought along a "Survival" knife, and what percentage brought a smaller, more "Bushcraft" oriented knife?

If getting out counts, I did get lost before, and couldn't find the trail out (should have blazed my way along...)
I did have a compass bearing to get out though.

So, I used the XL Espada I had (a folding knife with a 7.5 inch blade, 16 inch overall) to cut my way out as I made a straight line out.

I wouldn't have died without it though, so maybe "survival" isn't the right term.
I referred to it as a Trail Knife (another term! :eek:)
 
Though they are both marketing terms, "bushcraft," and "survival" generally describe two competing schools of thought on knife construction, albeit with a significant area of overlap.

Boiled down, the differences are primarily found on two points. So called "survival blades" are almost universally full tang constructed and generally trend towards .25" stock. Most, but by no means all, survival knives also tend to be above 4" in length. Ability to take abuse is one of the foremost attributes desired in a survival knife.

"Bushcraft" knives are generally around 4-5" in length max. It's okay if they are hidden tang, and they are generally made from thinner stock. Wood processing is the general forte of the breed and many of them are Scandi or convex ground to aid in this task, or are full flat ground, compromising the ultimate strength of a saber grind or some blade thickness to increase cutting utility.

And like I said, there are several well regarded "survival" knives that trend smaller and thinner, like the Fallkniven F1 and the ESEE3, and there are bushcraft style blades, such as leukus, that trend larger.

So, I guess though they are both ultimately marketing buzzwords, they each do have some loose concept behind them.

+1 Unfortunately, a lot of knife manufacturers use the terms "survival" and "bushcraft" pretty loosely, presumably for marketing purposes. Because of this, you have to take these terms with a grain of salt when you encounter them in a knife advertisement.

In theory, a modern survival knife is an overbuilt knife that is designed to take a lot of abuse, because of the extreme tasks that might be required of it in a survival scenario. In contrast with this, a bushcraft knife is typically a moderately or lightly built knife that is capable of accomplishing many wilderness tasks; however, it usually has features which enable it to excel at woodcraft.

These are generalizations, but that's the gist of it...in theory.
 
....This is easy to see (and has been since before the term was popular) but bushwhacking off trail in the Whites. Follow the terrain along brooks and you'll find common use campsite and those camp sites will often be trashed with semi-harvested wood and charred fire pits. Living off the land is fine if its your land. But not on public land. That's just mucking up the experience for some other guy and his kids......

I think this whole post is a real good one. I love the notion of being prepared and I like knives but I think your comments on preparedness and environmental impact are real important.

Growing up and spending a lot of time in those same whites, I learned a lot. I took a minimalist course through the AMC where we spent a number of days in the whites. No tent. Only sleeping bags, one tarp for the group of 6 and rice for food. We also had a first aid kit and some cordage. We strictly bushwhacked and practiced low impact camping and hiking. We learned about edible bugs and nuts, which worked but were gross. We all had energy bars as well. It's amazing how small of a fire you really need to get the job done and how easy it is to leave very little trace. Things that were all way more important than knives: Water purification - Clothing - Map & compass skills (esp off trail) - first aid. I think we maybe had one leatherman and a SAK between the 6 of us. We still had no trouble rigging a tarp for cover (awkwardly snug for the group but super functional), and we stayed comfortable.
 
Survival doesn't happen when you fall from the sky. Some professions come with a high probability of being in a survival situation. Like a big game hunting guide in Alaska. A client might become extremely ill or get injured and be socked in by a nasty storm. What happens when they need to stay put a few days before rescue? They survive and you better have the right tools or it might not turn out so well for you and the client. Just a regular hunter might get turned around for a few nights. On top of a good set of tools it's a good idea to have some woods knowledge on edibles and other skills. Some of them skills will need to be implemented with the right tools. One of them tools is what's "marketed" as a "survival" knife. You wouldn't want a filet knife in that situation would you? At that point the word filet would be some fancy marketing term if you had no use for a filet knife.

Knives are like any other tool. You need to match them to what you expect them to be used for.

I would take the fillet knife over no knife at all. But to your point on survival scenarios and bushcraft in general.

Yes, there are certainly professions or activities conducted in real wilderness where one could more easily encounter a survival situation. But as Pinnah says, the survival situation is often the result of poor planning and bushcraft activities are often high impact activities on public land. In the case of a professional guide, I think they should know better and be prepared as they are working for their client. It is not a Sunday afternoon jaunt out to the state park to hike a few trails. There of course are injury situations. Even moderate injuries can cause significant delays in getting to safety and in the meantime you have to "survive". For the guide, he should have a sat phone and other options, but for the most of the rest of us, we have what we "brung with us".

Survival situations occur during or in places where extreme environmental conditions occur. If you knowingly hike into one of those areas (lets say desert or extreme winter conditions unprepared, you're just a fool. This is also time dependent as in being prepared for a few days versus a week and so forth. If situations develop, then you should have a moderate amount of tools available to you to help yourself for a reasonable period of time. The number one concern is water after safety.

Trail knife.... reminds me of the kit guns marketed years ago as such which go inside your kit along with other critical supplies/tools. Usually a 22 handgun of some sort that is reliable. Now many people want to lug around their 4 lb 44 mag and 50 rounds (another pound).

In the lower 48, there are few places that there aren't roads of some sort within a days hike. But you have to know which way to find them and once you do, which direction to follow the road or "trail". Compasses come in handy for this along with a basic knowledge of the lay of the land. In remote areas (Alaska, deserts, northern Canada, and real wilderness areas), you have to be more prepared.

I have never had to spend a night in the woods when I didn't choose to. I have certainly been a bit mixed up a few times in the woods and it's usually flat or rolling terrain with few landmarks and limited sight distance. I have never been hurt in the woods where I couldn't at least limp out slowly. The difference now versus 20 years ago for me is that now I prepare for limited emergencies and a night under the stars. That doesn't mean I have a sleeping bag, but it does mean that I have the means to stay reasonably dry and warm, build a fire, and so forth. I generally don't prepare for black bear attacks. Certainly something could happen along that line in bear country. But not very likely. Even so I generally have a firearm with me unless I am loaded down with photography gear.
 
A lot of focus on survival in remote and wild locations in this thread. Living in an area that sees hurricanes, tropical storms, tornadoes, on occasion heavy (for my area which is not equipped to deal with it) snowfall. And also has major ports and navy bases being potential targets similar to the towers I watched burn from my highschool parkinglot as a teen. I worry much more about "suburban" survival. A multi tool might be more useful than what is often referred to as a survival knife and food, shelter, and a way to purify water and a plan to meet up with loved ones are likely to be far more important.
 
Sincerest thanks to everyone on this thread for posting their thoughts. I need to post up the ol' "looking for this type of knife in this price range" and this has helped me to garner a better understanding of what to ask.
 
My urban survival focus is always getting home. Of course, it is possible that the "home" does not exist anymore. The South is not well prepared for snow emergencies as they often only happen every few years. The last big snow in my area was in 1996. There have been snows since, but usually it's gone or sufficiently gone to get around by day's end.

Hurricanes are not an issue where I am being far from the coast. But certainly hurricane related rain and wind events happen. Some preparation is a good choice as well as not living within a 100 year floodplain. I consider this basic common sense.

Tornado events have been happening with seemingly a higher frequency in the last 10 years in my area. Again it is about basic preparedness.

My home strategy revolves around a basic food supply, a reasonable amount of tools, a moderate amount of stored gasoline/fuel, some stored water, a kerosene heater, and a generator. Without electricity, modern life ceases. Bugging out revolves around my vehicles. But I have no intention of bugging out unless I am forced to.... nuclear emergency, earthquake, disease, attacks from outside parties/countries.
 
But as Pinnah says, the survival situation is often the result of poor planning

If you have the right tools and the right mind set it will not be a "survival" situation. It will just be a little hiccup in the plans. A short stay in the wilds. If you grew up spending large amounts of time in the woods with your father while he passed down skills learned in them woods then it is nowhere near a "survival" situation at all. Don't panic and use what's around you and the experience just might be a very memorable one. You are not surviving if you know how to sustain yourself for extended unplanned periods in the wilds. "Survival" is for those who do not know how to sustain.

One of the tools that makes this easy is what most see marketed as a "survival" knife. I would take the filet knife over nothing too but it's not what you plan to take when there is even a small chance you might be staying the night, or a few.

If I did not fish I would not have a filet knife. If I did not go on large game hunts into isolated forests I would not take a "survival" knife with me. I can see where someone might be frustrated by how a knife is marketed if they don't know first hand how and why someone else just might need that tool in their kit.

You can have the best plans in the world and the best, most expensive equipment made from the most premium materials. Lay them in a pile I front of you after you get lost. The snow storm is so thick it blocks signal from the sat phone and GPS. The temp is falling rapidly. If you don't know what to do it won't matter how a knife was marketed or what it's name is or what steel it's made from. What happens to you is what you make happen to you at this point.
 
Sincerest thanks to everyone on this thread for posting their thoughts. I need to post up the ol' "looking for this type of knife in this price range" and this has helped me to garner a better understanding of what to ask.

I think the basic tools for a decision have been provided in this thread rather than specific knives for the most part. For modest priced knives, it is hard to go wrong with Kabar Beckers depending on what you intend to use it for. But the BK-7 and BK-9 come to mind for general purpose survival/woodscrafting/utility blades. I tend to prefer the BK-15 which is smaller and having a folding saw and pocket knife. But if you like the size, you can't go wrong with these choices.

Added: I have no experience with SAT phones or for that matter gps's other than the one in my vehicle in terms of their reliability in poor weather conditions. Have considered a handheld gps, but my use does not seem to me to justify another piece of equipment other than a compass and a map.

I have a couple filet knives, but have never used one. :D They are certainly the right tool for the job if you are cleaning panfish, especially small ones. I just don't care much for "fishy" tasting fish. Catfish would be the exception, but I have never fished for them specifically and would just toss them back in most cases.
 
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