So, I'm getting some diamond stones, what else do I need?

Jeff I have a fine DMT, several in fact, small/large benchstone and a few rods, way too long to sharpen on it if the knife is dull. How much time are you thinking of? Maybe we have two very difference measures of acceptable duration.

-Cliff
 
My suggestion is directed to a guy who is initially concerned about sharpening a Kershaw leek. Even if it were made of D2 it wouldn't take all that long to sharpen with a fine diamond hone. I say this compared to working on a Sharpmaker or an Arkansas stone. Habit expressed a concern for how much money he has sunk in at this point. I think he is in a good position to get started and he will accomplish a lot and learn a lot with what he has. I think he will also be happy with the way his work looks when using these finer abrasives.

The opposite approach is to jump right in with a silicon carbide combination stone. He is likelier to scratch up his blade and end up with a rather ragged edge that way. We are catching him mid way into his project. I might give him totally different guidance if he had a very small budget and he was not already committed to the diamond hone route. The classic oil stone route covers a lot of needs for $20.00 or so. Even if you get a classic Norton India Stone:
http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Combination-India-Stone-P69C25.aspx

If later on he wants to supplement his fine hones with something coarser he might want to pick up a basic Norton 220/1000 combination water stone:
http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Combination-Water-Stones-P28C4.aspx
 
The fine side of the combination Norton India stone is actually used by finishing by a lot of people, especially in the ABS, Goddard, Fowler, etc. . Even on minor touchups I find the fine Diamond to be very slow in terms of material removal unless the bevels are very fine. But I am speaking of wanting to sharpen near instantly. I would waste a bit of metal with a more coarse stone than my time. In general I would also look a bit long term and the coarse side of the Norton will be very useful. But yes, your point is very valid, for just keeping a Leek sharp and handling minor repairs, a DMT-fine would be adequate.

-Cliff
 
Boy, this is getting confusing... if the fine will take care of sharpening, what need is there for an extra fine, just getting it a bit sharper? :confused:

If you guys think there is a better route available, well, I haven't ordered anything yet... $44 is what I'd be spending on the 2 diamond stones.
 
Some of your confusion comes from comparing apples and oranges. A "fine" silicon carbide hone does not produce as smooth a finish as a "fine" aluminum oxide hone. A generic brand "fine" aluminum oxide hone will not leave as smooth a finish as a nominally "fine" Norton India Stone. An India Stone may or may not produce an edge that is as smooth as a "fine" diamond hone (I think that the India Stone may be a little finer). In my experience a "fine" ceramic hone produces a smoother finish than a "fine" diamond hone, but it does not cut as fast as the diamond. All this is what I was trying to indicate in the chart attached to my earlier post. Try and puzzle out what it is saying. In general diamonds produce crisp edges and they do it fast:
attachment.php


I think your original selection is a good use of $44.00. The fine diamond hone will do a nice job of preparing an edge on any steel. It will do a nice job on some of the stainless steels which don't like to take fine edges. It is just a little bit coarse for my taste as the final edge for knives that I may want to do smooth push cutting. If I had to have just one hone I might get by with just the fine diamond hone.

But I really think you want something else finer than that as a last step. I don't like waterstones for my final edge. Somehow the soft hone surface just isn't what I need when I do microbeveling. I like either a ceramic hone or a diamond hone for that final step. A Sharpmaker ceramic V-rod system would be great, but would set you back $50 beyond the price of your fine diamond bench hone. Your choice of an extra-fine diamond hone will do the job quicker and for less money. With your all-diamond approach you will get edges that are highly refined no matter what steel you have to deal with.

If you wanted an edge optimized for cutting rope or slicing cardboard you might want to leave your edge with the fine diamond finish. If you want to whittle or push cut through vegetables you would find that the extra-fine edge worked better and stayed sharp longer. If you want a nice shaving edge to impress your friends you would want that extra-fine diamond finish.
 
imho the most usefull DMT is the 2 sided one with fine on one side and coarse on the other.
 
Jeff Clark said:
Some of your confusion comes from comparing apples and oranges. A "fine" silicon carbide hone does not produce as smooth a finish as a "fine" aluminum oxide hone. A generic brand "fine" aluminum oxide hone will not leave as smooth a finish as a nominally "fine" Norton India Stone. An India Stone may or may not produce an edge that is as smooth as a "fine" diamond hone (I think that the India Stone may be a little finer). In my experience a "fine" ceramic hone produces a smoother finish than a "fine" diamond hone, but it does not cut as fast as the diamond. All this is what I was trying to indicate in the chart attached to my earlier post. Try and puzzle out what it is saying. In general diamonds produce crisp edges and they do it fast:


I think your original selection is a good use of $44.00. The fine diamond hone will do a nice job of preparing an edge on any steel. It will do a nice job on some of the stainless steels which don't like to take fine edges. It is just a little bit coarse for my taste as the final edge for knives that I may want to do smooth push cutting. If I had to have just one hone I might get by with just the fine diamond hone.

But I really think you want something else finer than that as a last step. I don't like waterstones for my final edge. Somehow the soft hone surface just isn't what I need when I do microbeveling. I like either a ceramic hone or a diamond hone for that final step. A Sharpmaker ceramic V-rod system would be great, but would set you back $50 beyond the price of your fine diamond bench hone. Your choice of an extra-fine diamond hone will do the job quicker and for less money. With your all-diamond approach you will get edges that are highly refined no matter what steel you have to deal with.

If you wanted an edge optimized for cutting rope or slicing cardboard you might want to leave your edge with the fine diamond finish. If you want to whittle or push cut through vegetables you would find that the extra-fine edge worked better and stayed sharp longer. If you want a nice shaving edge to impress your friends you would want that extra-fine diamond finish.
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Well, I don't believe I am confused anymore, and I'm going to get the 2 diamond stones :) Just need to order and learn how to use them. By the way, you mentioned the Sharpmaker, and it occurred to me that I never mentioned that I wanted to learn freehand for more flexibility... I'll probably be taking care of big kitchen knives too.

1 question though, if I put the 'extra-fine' edge on it, after time will it revert to the 'fine' edge? I'll have a lot more questions once I get the stones.

Oh, and thanks everyone! Especially Cliff and Jeff!
 
The "fine" diamond edge will have microserrations down around the 20 micron size range. The "extra-fine" edge will have microserrations that are much smaller. With use the extra-fine edge will get tend to get smoother, lose its microserrations, unless the alloy is kind of crumbly and develops small chips. So the answer is "no your extra-fine edge will not become a fine edge with use". Instead it will just become a duller edge.

On the other hand as the "fine" edge wears down it will tend to smooth out and will become hard to distinguish from the worn "extra-fine" edge. It is like an extremely worn saw. Eventually the teeth wear off and you have a flat edge.

The microserrations of the "fine" edge make it do a great job of slicing. With slicing you slide the edge cross-wise through the material and the microserrations break through the fiber of the material. This is great for slicing, but if you are chopping or pushing straight down through the material you can break or bend the microserrations faster than you would bend or break a finer edge.
 
Jeff Clark said:
The "fine" diamond edge will have microserrations down around the 20 micron size range. The "extra-fine" edge will have microserrations that are much smaller. With use the extra-fine edge will get tend to get smoother, lose its microserrations, unless the alloy is kind of crumbly and develops small chips. So the answer is "no your extra-fine edge will not become a fine edge with use". Instead it will just become a duller edge.

On the other hand as the "fine" edge wears down it will tend to smooth out and will become hard to distinguish from the worn "extra-fine" edge. It is like an extremely worn saw. Eventually the teeth wear off and you have a flat edge.

The microserrations of the "fine" edge make it do a great job of slicing. With slicing you slide the edge cross-wise through the material and the microserrations break through the fiber of the material. This is great for slicing, but if you are chopping or pushing straight down through the material you can break or bend the microserrations faster than you would bend or break a finer edge.
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That's cool... I'll have to experiment with fine and extra fine sharpening on different knives... :)


One other question that occurred to me is: Do I sharpen with the fine before moving on to the extra-fine, or is the fine just for if I want to put a different edge on it? Or, do I sharpen with the fine edge to get it to a point faster, then to extra-fine, to save time?


Kitchen knives should probably be fine edged, huh? Do my Leek extra-fine and Spin fine... or opposite.
 
Start with your coarsest hone and make sure that you cut your bevel cleanly all the way to the edge. There is no point in wasting time and energy doing heavy lifting using your extra-fine hone. Subsequently it will only take seconds to go from a fine finish to the extra-fine finish. You are only trying to remove 20 micron deep scratches on a narrow honing bevel and you are using a diamond hone to do the job.

I sharpen broad-bladed knives that I use on a cutting board (like chefs knives) to an extra-fine edge. They will hold their edge a little better that way and I mostly use a rocking or pushing cut on the cutting board. For slicing and boning knives I use the fine finish.
 
Just FYI, I had the pleasure (HA!) of going to a place tonight with my wife called "Sally's Beauty Supply" It's like a specialized Wal-Mart for hair dressers, beauticians, etc.

Well, while she did her thing, I was wandering around, I came upon a nail file section. Amazing! 8"X1", and grits up to 5000. Whats more, they're thick and have padding between the two sides. About a buck or two per each. I bought a combo with 500 and 750 on one side, and 1000 on the other. Came home and grabbed an old Chinese stainless that was stained, and started in on it. 15 minutes later it was shiny as new!

I'm thinking about buying a few of the 5000 grit ones to do some real edge polishing.

Any thoughts on this maneuver?
 
What do you guys think of a plain combo edge? Extra-fine tip half, fine handle half (meaning, half from tip and half from handle).
 
i think depending o the steel it is mostly a wast to work (i do like CE knives tho)
fact is the gain is slight goignot from extra fine to fine on the one blade

no if you were using a fine grain steel and leavign a 220 grit for half and 1200 grit on the other now then you could tell

im a DMT guy and plan on next stone/plate being the 3 micron EX fine to see how it works on kitchen knives that i make

that said right now the knives i make are of cpm154 and a few im tring in cpm10 v and i run them to 3 micron on the belt less i fell they are neeing a hand hone. if im hand honing ill still take them to 320 on the belts jsut to set the edge bevel then hone form there opn dmt 600 and 1200 bench hones. this is where it getts odd i have a stick ( 1x2x36 realy in maple ) that i load with white buffing compound. fro my finish i strope the knife on the "stick" a few times to realy clean that edge up. unlike leather the stick gives little under pressure whill nocking any slight wire edge off





the true thing to remember here is everone has there own style of cuttign and that shapes how we sharpen knives (to our liking )
many ways to sharpen and many ways that work



edit missed a 0 in the 220 /1200 grit
 
If I do a combo sharpening job I want the coarser edge near the point and the smoother edge near the handle. The curved belly of the blade near the tip usually gets some transverse slicing action when used to cut. I tend to do more of a straight whittling action back by the handle.

It can be dangerous to use a combination edge. You start applying high force to push a smooth edge through a material and you slide your blade onto the section of the blade with the coarser finish. Suddenly the blade just zips through the material out of control from all of the pressure you have built up. Dull edges are dangerous, but unevenly sharpened edges are even more dangerous.
 
i should clear up i like CE edges (spyderco combo edges ) for field work but the blade should be over 3 inch in CE to be real usefull
 
butcher_block said:
i should clear up i like CE edges (spyderco combo edges ) for field work but the blade should be over 3 inch in CE to be real usefull
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I hear you there, I used to carry a Gerber Paraframe II that was a combo edge, and the serrations would really just get in the way when using it. If I were going to get like an Endura for example though, I'd go CE.

Jeff Clark said:
If I do a combo sharpening job I want the coarser edge near the point and the smoother edge near the handle. The curved belly of the blade near the tip usually gets some transverse slicing action when used to cut. I tend to do more of a straight whittling action back by the handle.

It can be dangerous to use a combination edge. You start applying high force to push a smooth edge through a material and you slide your blade onto the section of the blade with the coarser finish. Suddenly the blade just zips through the material out of control from all of the pressure you have built up. Dull edges are dangerous, but unevenly sharpened edges are even more dangerous.
Click to expand...


Oh, good point (puns are fun when they just happen :))


If I were gonna have a knife for cutting tape, opening boxes, cutting card board boxes and what-not, what edge would I put on it, the extra-fine (don't say use a razor blade :P)?
 
Broos said:
Here's a good thread if you're looking for a magnifyer. I really like my Belomo I got as a result of recommendations here.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=459033&highlight=belomo
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I have one of those Belomo loupes, and it is worth 3x what they retail for, if you ask me. I did some research into this a few years ago and found out that Belomo is THE brand to go to for this kind of thing, because their optics are of superb quality. Apparently Belarus is known for this.
 
You can go back and forth between a "fine" and "extra-fine" edge pretty fast. I would start with a fine edge and try it on some cardboard. Next I would put a bit of an extra-fine micro bevel (a few light strokes at a slightly higher angle) on the edge and cut some more of the same cardboard. See what you like better. If you prefer the fine edge it is easy to go back with a few strokes on the hone. I think that cardboard is your greatest consumer of edge.

You could try a little tape before you try the cardboard if you like. I find that some of the plastic packing tape is a little reluctant to slice if you just cut lightly from the surface.
 
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