So many Steels!

amacks

amacks

Gold Member
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Messages
675
I was looking at my Spyderco catalogue(thanks Danielle) and I was wondering, why do you use so many different steels. Not counting the kitchen knives, the Herbst or any of the Seki you get: Aus 6,8,10; Ats-34 and 55; Cpm440v; 440c; VG10 and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
Why so many varieties?
Aaron

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aaronm@cs.brandeis.edu
I like my women like I like my knives: strong, sharp, well-formed and pattern-welded!
 
Aaron - We have been experimenting with steels since we first began making knives in 1981. A number of resons;

1) It gives us an opportunity to see for ourselves how a particular steel behaves in the "real world". Sometimes numbers don't tell the whole story. Sometimes salesmen don't know the whole story.

2) Certain steels offer advantages in certain areas. Corrosion resistance where that is needed over edge retention. Steel for food must be capable of strength while being very thin at the edge and not "break out". Edge retention and corrosion resistance in stainless is tough. We use 'em, we test 'em, you test 'em and we all learn, improve and refine.

3) Certain steels are much more expensive to purchase and "turn into a knife".

We are also testing many that we don't mention or aren't ready to put into a model.
sal

ps: You forgot Gin-I (Gingami I).
 
I also forgot 440a(according to half your website, C41BK has a blade of 440A, the other half says Gin1)
Aaron


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aaronm@cs.brandeis.edu
I like my women like I like my knives: strong, sharp, well-formed and pattern-welded!
 
I personally think that the fact that Spyderco is willing to use many different steels shows a progressive attitude on their part. They don't want to stand still with one type, but try many to see what works better. I applaud them for this. Very few companies do this and none to the extent spyderco has. Besides we are the end user and the fact that I have ATS-34,55, VG-10, 440V, AUS-6,8, and GIN1 blades and many more is neat to me.
 
Aaron - We planned to use 440A originally, but never did actually use the steel. switched to Gin-1 when production began.
Thanx Cobalt.
sal
 
Just wanted to say...

I have the Native in GIN-1, and it is turning out to be a much better steel than I would have imagined. I have been carrying it for weeks, cutting cardboard, paper (mail), rope, even a few limbs, not to mention several food stuffs, etc. It STILL will scrape hair off my arm (yeah, I know, it doesn't jump off, but hey, I haven't had to sharpen it yet). Leg hair still jumps off like it afraid of the edge.

FWIW,
O_D
 
I like the variety. Who wants to be limited to just one or two steel choices such as Benchmade(I like their knives, but would love a larger selection of steels)
Besides, variety is the spice of life.

God bless!

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*Norse Knife Nut*

"Military" Fans Unite!!

Romans 10: 9-10

 
Salesmen that don't know everything about steel? Obviously, they don't work where I do! Just kidding. I've been selling knives for eight years, and I still can't call myself an authority on steels. Thanks to Spyderco for putting the elemental chart in their little pocket catalog. However, this doesn't mean that any of my customers truely understand what I'm telling them, or even showing them. One more point: Notice that the more expensive models tend to have the more exotic steels (except for the Viele-wish that was ATS-34 or -55)? CPM 440V costs more to buy than 440C does, which is why it's still fairly rare in production knives, and 440C has been used for years. I supose performance is a function of cost. How high speed low drag do ya wanna be?

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A flute with no holes is not a flute, but a donut with no holes, is a danish.
 
I'd personally like to see a little more simplicity and regularity in Spyderco's steel choices. I thought the current situation was a result of trying different options in the hazy period when production was outstripping GIN-1 supply and ATS-55 was not yet developed.

If memory serves, wasn't it the case that a few years ago nearly every nicer Spyderco was in GIN-1 (G-2 then), less expensive lightweights were in AUS-8, and a few custom collaborations and special models were in ATS-34? I liked this setup a lot. As GIN-1 became unavailable, Spyderco started trying every steel under the sun, and that is fine, but I think it's time for some stability to return as ATS-55 becomes available and old toolings for various steels are discontinued.

Spydercos are quality knives, every last one of them, so I'd like to see AUS-10 become the "basic" steel. No more AUS-8, 440C, or AUS-6. All the nicer (non Zytel-handled) models could be in ATS-55, and the custom types and specials could use 440V. I just think this would be a whole lot easier on the buyer, and eliminate the current situation where the knife you want may be in some oddball steel that you'd rather not have. Yes, choices are good, but the choices aren't what steel you want in a certain knife. You choose the knife and then get the steel it happens to be in.

This isn't meant as a criticism, just an "I'd rather." I understand the supply troubles that Spyderco has had with certain steels, but feel that if these have been resolved it would do the line good to be re-standardized. I enjoy a knife in an odd steel as much as the next guy, but for basic value-per-cost I think Spyderco should select a single steel for each "echelon" of knives, and this way give the "ELU" the most cutting power he or she can afford.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
The problem, Corduroy, is that the steel you like the most, may not be the steel I like the most or some one else may like. The variety gives everyone a choice. If you like VG-10, you got it. If you like 440V, you got it. If you like ATS-34 or 55, you got it. What this also means, is that if anyone is likely to try a new alloy, it is Spyderco, since they have shown the initiative to do so in the past.
 
I understand the "simplicity and regularity" desire in blade steels. Steel is now yet another factor in an overwhelming number of factors that go into your knife choice.

On the other hand, though I understand the desire, I am solidly on the other side of the coin. Not only does having steel choices make my knife choice process more fun, but it exposes me to knife steels I would otherwise have a much harder time trying. New knife steels are now another excuse to buy the next knife!

Besides, I feel that this is the way state-of-the-art steels get pushed. Throw a bunch out there, see which ones perform and which ones the market chooses. Is there a new (or old but overlooked) and promising steel out? A leading-edge knife manufacturer should slap that baby on a knife and let us have at it!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
I know where you are both coming from, but we don't really have our choice in steels. We have our choice in knives, but we can't then pick what steel they come in (in most cases). In reality, we either pick a knife we like and accept the steel it's in, or maybe pick a steel and look for a knife we're OK with that uses it. Given that situation, I'd rather Spyderco just narrow things down a bit.

I fully agree that for us knife nuts, an odd steel is a fine excuse to buy a new knife (waiting for my Calypso Sr in VG10...) But for the average user this is just confusing. As I said, this isn't really a complaint, just an observation that the line looks "mixed up" now compared to a few years ago.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Cord, the average user will not much care what steel he is using anyway. Just look at all the 420 and 425 knives out there that so many claim are great. These steels don't come close to the lowest steels Spy. uses. I actually like the fact that I have so many spyderco's with all different steels. My wegner, calypso, Military, Endura, Worker, clip-it, civilian, etc. all have different steels. An average consumer won't know and neither will the Guy at Big 5 most likely that is selling him the knife.

 
Corduroy - Gin-1 wasn't unavailable. it just 6 months to get it. We have tried AUS-10 in a number of pieces, I don't think we will us it much more. We are planning on reducing the number of steels, but we will always be trying more. Each steel needs several years in the field to really know what is happening. CPM440V is for sure a keeper (unless it is ultimately replaced by somthing better).

Joe - We did some cutting tests on M2. Very nice. We had to sharpen to the same standards that we use for our testing ("scary sharp").

Initial Cutting performance was very very good. Up in the 80 range. In there with VG10, ATS55 & ATS34. About 15% below 440V. Total cutting performace was also very good, in the 350 range, which also puts it up there. We're still comparing, but considering 440V is in the 650 range, there is still a major difference between the ingot and particle steels.
sal
 
Sal,

Have you tried Talonite? [or other Cobalt alloys] If so, what do you think regarding its cutting performance, sharpness, edge retention, strength, etc.

What do you mean, above, when you are giving ranges? I get an idea, as in 440V has good cutting performance, but I think I am missing something. As I recall you have been comparing 420V to 440V to see if there are significant performance differences or not. Do you have any preliminary findings yet?

Donald.
 
As to throwing out an array of steels in order to find out what the ELU's want, I have a feeling that the popularity a steel on trial might be heavily influenced by the knife that it is used in. For example, Spyderco put 440V in the Military first, probably to test ELU reactions to the steel. However, the popularity of 440V in the Spyderco line would probably have been considerably less if the steel was put in a model such as the Pegasus or Navigator.
 
Donald - Patrick is grind up some talonite and other cobalt alloys now in order to do some preliminary testing. We've not really done enough 420V testing to be conclusive. We know we can grind it and it is hard to grind. It's not first on the agenda at this time.

Archie - I agree with your opinion. We try to put the newer steels in models that we believe will be well received. 440V in the Military, VG10 in the Calypso jr and ATS55 in the Endura and Delica. The Native will be our first litweight to get 440V and the BF Native is the first Native to be spirited by this steel.
sal


sal
 
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