So, um, what exactly is a "Meditteranean" bowie?

RogerP

RogerP

Joined
Feb 28, 2002
Messages
13,348
Okay, it's stupid question time. One can't hope to learn if one is afraid to display his ignorance.

I find I really like the elegant lines of the knives generally described as Mediterranean bowies or dirks. Examples by Kirk Rexroat:

14566475-1f4b-0200016E-.jpg



And Ken Durham (both pics from www.knifeart.com):

14602133-e838-02000176-.jpg


So, what is it that defines a Mediterranean dirk? What is its historical origin? The term "Mediterranean" seems awfully non-specific, is there a particular country that gave birth to this style? And to what use was this knife put - weapon, large utility/camp knife, both?

To make things more confusing (for me, at least) is that I have seen knifes of similar profile and proportions descibed as: Searles bowie;
Rezin bowie, Argentine gaucho knife; Brazilian bowie etc. Are each of these distinct in some way, or do they all basically describe the same knife?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have.

Best regards,

RogerP

PS: Here's a stunning offering from Jerry Fisk's site (www.fisk-knives.com) :

14602587-48a1-01F80168-.jpg
 
Originally posted by RogerP


"what is it that defines a Mediterranean dirk? What is its historical origin? The term "Mediterranean" seems awfully non-specific, is there a particular country that gave birth to this style? And to what use was this knife put - weapon, large utility/camp knife, both?

To make things more confusing (for me, at least) is that I have seen knifes of similar profile and proportions descibed as: Searles bowie;
Rezin bowie, Argentine gaucho knife; Brazilian bowie etc. Are each of these distinct in some way, or do they all basically describe the same knife?"UNQUOTE

I have seen that style of knife called Persian, and seen the actual knives. I think they started out there, or at least in that region, and spread around the Mediterranean basin.
Searles,Rezin, Argentine Gaucho, Brazililian etc., are all descendants of the same Persian/Mediterranean knives.
The Spanish, then the French controlled the Louisiana territory before we ever got there, the Spanish, and the Portugese controlled most of South America. All used these knives, so when the Americans came into this region(Louisiana), after the Louisiana Purchase, they simply adopted, and modified these knives for their own use.
They are,IMO, the direct ancestor to the Bowie, as we know it today.
If you ever get a chance to see any knives by Samuel Bell, take it. They bridge the gap between Mediterranean, and Bowie.
Mediterranean is about my favorite style.
The knives you posted are beautiful. :D
I think they are defined by the sparse clean line of those same photo's.
To the uninitiated, these may resemble kitchen cutlery, but are actualy much thicker. :eek:
Click to expand...
 
...and if I was to choose, this would be my very favorite style.

I have a few knives of this style. None of them original or antique, but all of them beautiful. The absence of a guard is the most identifying characteristic, as is a spanish notch. But, as you will see, there are exceptions. (and Mike's right--a good KITCHEN knife has similar features! ;))

These two are my very favorites, and initiated me into this style. Hill Pearce from Alabama made them in the eighties, and no longer makes knives. :( Check out my Ebony and Ivory pair:

orig.jpg


What is unseen and unreal is the amount of detailed filework on ech of them. You can look at the closeups here:
http://www.fototime.com/AFA763B03AB80C6/orig.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/57EE2BFE13BE02E/orig.jpg


And that's not all. Gib Gignard made me a very special version that is NOT diminutive at all, with his southwestern flair... :)

orig.jpg


I have one more.... :D

orig.jpg


From Gary Shaw's display (and currently for sale) the little-known Judson Brennan. All are simply wonderful. I couldn't help but add to this thread with these beauties.

Others....?

Coop
 
Thanks Mike and Coop for the great info and pics. I'm pretty sure that this type of knife will be my next purchase.

Best regards,

Roger
 
I think they're much more Mediteranean than Persian. There are a wide variety of similar knives that are traditional to Corsica, in various sizes, and including some meant just for stabing, without an edge.

I think that in the US the most historically similar to this were made by Samuel Bell. Making a Samuel Bell was the Bob Moran challenge 2 years ago, and the knives that won were absolutelly outstanding.

JD
 
Originally posted by Joss
I think they're much more Mediteranean than Persian. There are a wide variety of similar knives that are traditional to Corsica, in various sizes, and including some meant just for stabing, without an edge.

I think that in the US the most historically similar to this were made by Samuel Bell. Making a Samuel Bell was the Bob Moran challenge 2 years ago, and the knives that won were absolutelly outstanding.

JD
Click to expand...

I said, "I THINK they started out there"(Persia). Who can be sure. And I believe that Corsica is in the Mediterannean basin.
Here are some ancient Indian and Persian Kards. See what you think.
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/OA/items/000208.html

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/OA/items/000126.html

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/OA/items/000129.html

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/OA/items/000120.html
 
I don't want to get into a pissing contest here, but Corsica and Indopersia have very little in common. Based on what I've seen, all Med' Dirk or Bowies have a hidden tang construction, with a ferrule. Both Kards and Kyber Knives have a full tang construction, with or without bolsters, which can be integral or peened. Med' Bowies often have extensive filework, including Spanich Notches, whether Indopersian knives don't but sometimes have a T-back.

I agree that they all share that elongated triangular blade which is so elegant. Thanks for those pics BTW - I'm a big fan of the Persian blades. ;)

JD
 
Joss
I do not want to get into any water slinging either. So, do you think I should go to Turkey and get my money back on the 17 century Persian Kard with the concealed tang?

Mike Hull
Yep, I agree with you. The moorish influence as it spread also spread the knife where it was tweaked on occasions in the different areas from its orginial Kard shape. I have several old Kards I bought to study.

RogerP
Ken Durham makes a good one. Also if you want I can put you in contact with several really good makers from Brazil that makes outstanding dirks for the price.

The Spanish Dirk is one of the prettiest knives around in my opinion. Very simple to look at but harder to forge and grind than a flat blade. Odd in a way is that some people think because it is so simple looking in design that it should be easy to make.
 
Jerry,

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info!

I'm interested in hearing what you mean by "harder [to make] than a flat blade" - what do you mean by flat? Is it that the ferrule is integral?

Thanks,

JD
 
Joss
Ubet them little boogers are harder to forge. Yes, the intergal part of it. I tell you who does a good job at it and describes it well too is Tai Goo. On his web site it goes at it step by step. For makers interested in learning how that is a good method to follow.

Interestingly enough when I started getting interested and looking around, I found out several methods used to construct them. No names mentioned here but several makers forge the blade out of its bolster then simply chuck the bolster up in a lathe and drill and tap for a 1/4" bolt to be used for the tang. I could not trust that. You cannot tell me when you get out there failing away at something that the screwed in bolt type tang is not going to twist, then you got a loose handle. You could get no more than approx 1/4" depth of threads. So if I was a buying from a modern maker I would ask how the tang was constructed.
You don't see as many americans make this knife because it takes so much time and effort to get it right. You cannot hide anything on these designs because it is all out there for you to see. For makers interested in it Uncle Al's knife supplies sells a file guide that works on flat blades as well as intergals now. simple but it works.
jf
 
Thanks - I didn't know those were always integral. I tried once and the ferrule is going to have to be substantiated by something bigger. It's a bit too small right now, and I don't think I could upset it.

I've bought a thick bar of W1 that should allow a bunch of interesting integral designs...

JD
 
Joss
Those with bolts for tangs I do not call intergal personally.
I do a bit different than Tai, even though I really like his method. I forge the stock into round stock if I do not start with round, then forge the blade and skip back and forge the tang. It takes some close forging but it works well for me. The smallest I have worked with is I found some 1/2" round bar 1095 that made a couple of cute patch knives. I forge the tang square so it really can be used hard it need be. neat knives.
 
Just wanted to jump in and say that this is a great thread.I have a reproduction on order that is on this theme and am trying to figure it out and this is a great help.Guess I should go visit Ken before I start.
There are some really great looking knives being posted here also.
Mr.Jerry,How are you squaring (flating) the back side of the integrale bolster so the handle will fit tight.Or is this the jig Uncle Al has?
Bruce
Oh yea..Jerry do you have a address to Tai's site?
 
Bruce
Depends upon how you want to fit up everything. I use a fullering tool and go in and fuller all the metal down at the shoulder without removing any of it. Then I clamp on the jig and just barely clean it up with a file. Tai and some others upset or square it up on the small round hole in the anvil then use a collar that fits up over the shoulder. Just depends upon how you want the end piece to be. Both work and I like Tai's intergal work really well. He has no metal removal and is clean too. Just figuring, don't know for sure but doing it that way there would be not even any clean up with file.

Some of the Brazil boys I saw forged out intergal bolster with full tangs and intergal butt caps as well. With sledge hammers. Really good forge work. You can get some real value from them boys. They will be at the BLade show for the first time this year. YOu guys should look them up.
jf
 
Jerry,

Could you tell us more about those Brazilian makers? Names would be great. There's a fellow whose pics were posted on CKD, and I was very impressed...

Thanks,

JD
 
Joss
I am familiar with the work of Ricardo Vilar, Rodrego S. and Luciano D. These boys are really busting it to improve and do well with a fair price. I had them as students when I was in Brazil. I have put them all three through cutting and bending test and they did just fine. I have seen some of their rough forging be as close as my 60 grit grinding. These boys are really good. They are real excited about coming to the Blade show for the first time. They really do have some good values for the work they are offering. Also look for some upcoming articles about their work in Blade and KI.
jf
 
So, um, any of you computer-savy knife guys know what happened to my pics? They were there yesterday, honest. :(

Cheers,

Roger
 
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