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So What's Wrong With a Tanto?
- Thread starter Skunkabilly
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glockman99
RIP Dann, you were a good guy.
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I never saw anything too much wrong with Tanto...He was a good friend/sidekick for The Lone Ranger.
..
..Originally posted by glockman99
I never saw anything too much wrong with Tanto...He was a good friend/sidekick for The Lone Ranger.
I always thought Tanto and the Lone-Ranger where a little on the funny side if you get my meaning, you know those Hollywood types, always wearing the silly tight costumes and following eachother the way they did. I don't remember either of them ever sticking around trying to get the girl. If only Silver could talk, imagine what stories he could tell....! Anyhoo, I've never liked the blade style. I think they where a modern answer to putting an inexpensive point on mass produced blades, that got made popular by an advertising gimmick. You certainly won't find many traditional or antique japaneese blades with that point style. Also, they're harder to sharpen well, they leave the blade with no usable "Belly", and I don't really think they are any stronger as points than a curved edge. I see no geometric reason why they would be. Traditionally stiffer points where achieved by decreasing the distal taper while increasing the profile taper, in order to create a blade like those commonly found on late fourteenth, and fifteenth century swords, made in this fashion for the piercing of chain maille, and penetrating certain plate armour.
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Coug, I've already admitted that I use the car door example to tweak tanto lovers a bit. The point I'm trying to get across, in a slightly sarcastic way, is: you're sacrificing point control and piercing ability and belly for an extra strong point. Is it really worth it? For some folks, the answer is "yes". I think most of us are better served with other formats.
But I have seen plenty of traditional tanto patterns with the reinforced point style. I did say "tanto style reinforced point", to draw attention the fact that I was talking about the two-step grind, rather than the Americanized tanto shape itself. In other words, I don't think I was quite arguing the point you think I was making. I'll also rush in to say that my interest in historical uses is minimal, and I'll yield to anyone who has done more research than me on historical points. That said, I was speaking of the general grind philosophy of the reinforced point, not claiming that Americanized tantos were all the rage a few hundred years ago, and certainly not chisel-ground tantos!
Hopefully that makes you feel better that I've retained all my faculties
Okay, you and I agree on all of the above, though I still have an argument. I'd argue that the architype of the Americanized tanto is the Cold Steel tanto -- it's a geometric tanto, two-step grind (flat at tip, hollow along primary edge), and double ground. Chisel grinds on that, or at least the popular rise thereof, came later. I consider Americanized tantos that have a chisel grind or a dropped/clipped tip to be "modified".
ACtually, one other interesting point to the above. At least one experienced outdoors guy, Ron Hood, is a fan of tantos for outdoors use. Now, tanto lovers needn't get too excited, since as far as I can tell Ron and his fans may be the only folks in the world using tantos for this purpose. But, given that Ron has probably forgotten more about outdoorsmanship than I've ever known, I'd hesitate to say the tanto is useless for this, though I imagine Ron has developed special techniques, and for the vast majority of people tantos are a bad choice for this usage.
Joe
not2sharp
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The Americanized Tanto is just another specialized tool. If it has a straight edge it can cut pretty much in the same way you would use a sheepsfoot, or wharnscliff. There are only a couple of edge angles, vrs. a continous curve, and that can be a positive or a negative. Skinning might be a problem, but then again, you wouldn't want to shave with a skinner.
Chopping with one can be a plus. Many of the 19th and 20th Century issued military bolos (e.g. the US 1005, 1904, 1909, 1910) had single sided grinds to enhance performance and add strength; and, the heavy squared off tip can be a plus in resisting impact damage and in reducing the chance that a misdirected blade bounces back at the user.
The tanto might be a bit strange, but if someone wants to use a chisel with a cutting edge ground onto one side, then power to them.
n2s
Chopping with one can be a plus. Many of the 19th and 20th Century issued military bolos (e.g. the US 1005, 1904, 1909, 1910) had single sided grinds to enhance performance and add strength; and, the heavy squared off tip can be a plus in resisting impact damage and in reducing the chance that a misdirected blade bounces back at the user.
The tanto might be a bit strange, but if someone wants to use a chisel with a cutting edge ground onto one side, then power to them.
n2s
Cougar Allen
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What exactly do you mean by the phrase reinforced point? That has a definite meaning to us hysterical guys -- the blade gets thicker toward the point at the same time it's getting narrower. It was a popular feature in the days when the people you wanted to stab were likely to be wearing armor, but not much use any more. I see people using that phrase to describe modern knives and I don't know what they're talking about....
I have seen Japanese tantos with only a little belly -- you can easily convert a double-ground American tanto to that profile with only a little grinding -- but never with no belly at all.
That design never has a reinforced point -- reinforced points are only found on double-edged daggers and single-edged blades with a similar narrow-point tapered profile.
Hopefully that makes you feel better that I've retained all my faculties
Yeah, I was actually a little worried about you.
I believe Emerson's left-handed chisel grinds predate Lynn Thompson's double-ground version, but chisel grinds didn't begin to fill the junk knife baskets in the knife stores until later. Doesn't matter -- the very idea of any form of the American tanto being original or authentic cracks me up.
I use the term "modified American tanto" to refer to the bastardized designs that have a clip instead of a straight spine. I try to remember to specify whether I'm talking about chisel ground American tantos or not, and whether it's a true single-bevel chisel grind or it has a secondary bevel. They perform differently....
He says he likes it because he can grip it by the blade instead of by the handle and choke up on it for fine work. I asked him once why he couldn't do that just as well with other blade profiles ... never did get an answer I could understand; he just said it works for him, basically. He does the same thing with other blade profiles too.
In conclusion, I think we're all agreed American tantos are not useless -- nothing with a sharp edge on it is useless -- and they're even good for some limited purposes -- but they're limited.
By the way, some people complain about the difficulty of sharpening them, but I think a true chisel grind American tanto is about the easiest kind of knife to sharpen. It's different, that's all. Lay the bevel on a flat stone and grind away ... nothing could be easier than that, if you have a flat stone (diamond stones stay flat). It isn't quick, but it's easy. Of course sharpening a puukko grind is almost as easy, and a puukko is a lot more versatile....
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And just a further chime-in...
Most of the "armor piercing" tanto (yoroi doshi) were hira-zukuri in shape (similar to the one I posted a pic of) but extremely thick with much more pronounced distal taper involved. Most such tanto were over 3/8" thick, some were 1/2" or possibly more at the machi.
Longer swords with fairly straight fukura were occasionally turned into tanto, and because there is a marked differentiation between blade and point (the yokote), some people assume the point is reinforced for the purpose of stabbing. It's not.
Not starting an argument, just pointing out details.
Most of the "armor piercing" tanto (yoroi doshi) were hira-zukuri in shape (similar to the one I posted a pic of) but extremely thick with much more pronounced distal taper involved. Most such tanto were over 3/8" thick, some were 1/2" or possibly more at the machi.
Longer swords with fairly straight fukura were occasionally turned into tanto, and because there is a marked differentiation between blade and point (the yokote), some people assume the point is reinforced for the purpose of stabbing. It's not.
Not starting an argument, just pointing out details.
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<a href="http://www.sergium.izet.pl/images/knives/comparisons/tanto_01.jpg" target="_blank"><IMG align=right SRC="http://www.sergium.izet.pl/images/knives/comparisons/tanto_01_tn.jpg" border="2"></a>Mostly that they have nothing to do with classic Japanese fighting knives. Here is the replica of ladys tanto made by German knifemaker Marcus Balbach using original shapes, production methods and technologies. The mans tanto was bigger and more decorated, this is the only difference.
Cougar is quite right so-called Americanized tantos never were used for armor piercing. More, they were never used for anything in times when the real need and not the fad decided about blade shape. In fact so-called Americanized tanto was born as the crossbreeding of fantasy to make knife what was never made and marketing intentions to catch the buyer with unusual look what should state him about unusual properties of such blade.
There are no real advantages of such blades, no matter ground on one or both sides. If some advantages would be such blades would be invented in ancient times but they didnt. In fact so-called Americanized tanto is younger than most of us out here. The natural selection is not joke and it works not only among living forms. The natural selection of man made things didnt allow such blades to appear or to survey before permeated with material goods world didnt desired something unusual, no matter that useless.
Not2Sharp,
Cougar is quite right so-called Americanized tantos never were used for armor piercing. More, they were never used for anything in times when the real need and not the fad decided about blade shape. In fact so-called Americanized tanto was born as the crossbreeding of fantasy to make knife what was never made and marketing intentions to catch the buyer with unusual look what should state him about unusual properties of such blade.
There are no real advantages of such blades, no matter ground on one or both sides. If some advantages would be such blades would be invented in ancient times but they didnt. In fact so-called Americanized tanto is younger than most of us out here. The natural selection is not joke and it works not only among living forms. The natural selection of man made things didnt allow such blades to appear or to survey before permeated with material goods world didnt desired something unusual, no matter that useless.
Not2Sharp,
Not exactly. All military stuff including Kalashnikov assault rifle bajonet were ground on the single side to reduce production costs only, nothing to do with care about performance, strength and any other utility purposes. Directly inversely disregarding them completely.
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I've used tantos for years as general utility knives. I haven't had any problems. The quality of the knife is more important than the blade design, IMO.
As far as piercing ability goes, when one of my cousins from the Philippines was on vacation here he bought a standard Cold Steel tanto and brought it back with him. Where he lived you don't go to the grocery store to buy a ham, you buy a pig and slaughter it yourself, which is what he used the tanto for. He told me it stabs and cuts better than any knife he ever used. I guess a way to test it is to compare it to a Cold Steel Outdoorsman, which is a similar knife but not a tanto, so the size and quality would be close, but I'm not about to buy one just to test it.
For self defense, some people say the tanto is the best design for snap cuts. Lynn Thompson's article on knife points says something like the tanto point cuts as it penatrates and is less likely to push tissue aside.
As far as piercing ability goes, when one of my cousins from the Philippines was on vacation here he bought a standard Cold Steel tanto and brought it back with him. Where he lived you don't go to the grocery store to buy a ham, you buy a pig and slaughter it yourself, which is what he used the tanto for. He told me it stabs and cuts better than any knife he ever used. I guess a way to test it is to compare it to a Cold Steel Outdoorsman, which is a similar knife but not a tanto, so the size and quality would be close, but I'm not about to buy one just to test it.
For self defense, some people say the tanto is the best design for snap cuts. Lynn Thompson's article on knife points says something like the tanto point cuts as it penatrates and is less likely to push tissue aside.
not2sharp
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Perhaps, there are some custom knifemakers selling $1000+ single sided tantos, that have done becuase they lack the skill to grind a comparable two-sided knife. But, it is not that expensive to put a standard profile on a knife, and some of these examples were among the most expensive knives ever produced for our troops. They were simply based upon some traditional Philippino patterns which often employed a single sided grind.
n2s
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Serg,
I'd have to disagree with you on the point that tantos were designed in times of fad, and not born out of necessity. Although not necessary, tantos made by the Strider guys have been serving troops for a long time now. With the hard use these guys put on the blades, the tanto is good. Less likely to break a tip, which is easy for these guys to do apparently.
And as mentioned, the tanto tip (American) has the now famous "triangle of death", that really opens up flesh on slashes. It is still my contention that most people aren't learning how to use a tanto like a tanto, and instead try to use one like a drop point hunter. I had a tanto once (got rid of it because it was too small for my hand) and I didn't liek it at first. But when I started listening to the tool and using it like a tanto and not like a drop point, it's usefulness went up.
Hey Robert, nice tanto!
I'd have to disagree with you on the point that tantos were designed in times of fad, and not born out of necessity. Although not necessary, tantos made by the Strider guys have been serving troops for a long time now. With the hard use these guys put on the blades, the tanto is good. Less likely to break a tip, which is easy for these guys to do apparently.
And as mentioned, the tanto tip (American) has the now famous "triangle of death", that really opens up flesh on slashes. It is still my contention that most people aren't learning how to use a tanto like a tanto, and instead try to use one like a drop point hunter. I had a tanto once (got rid of it because it was too small for my hand) and I didn't liek it at first. But when I started listening to the tool and using it like a tanto and not like a drop point, it's usefulness went up.
Hey Robert, nice tanto!
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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... laughing so hard I'm scaring the bison ...
Gentlebeings, this is not a weapon. It is a kitchen knife. Like any kitchen knife it can be used as a weapon and it will work better than your fingernails, but that's not what it's designed for and it's not particularly good at it.
I would rather not go into detail on how (and why, and where) to open up flesh with slashes on this forum, or on what tools are suitable for the purpose. I presume everyone who is interested is already reading the tactical forums, where I have said about everything I have to say on the subject. For this forum, can I just say the American tanto is not a slashing knife and leave it at that? If you are ever forced to use an American tanto as a weapon you will find it works reasonably well for thrusting (and once it's in you can cut with it) but it can't make deep slashes; you need a curved edge for that.
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Not2Sharp,
Please call me ignorant if you like but high price of custom knife as itself proves nothing for me. More precisely saying it proves only that there are some fellows who are willing to pay this particular price for this particular knife. Are they ruled buy necessity or by fad there is their personal issue, not mine. Just some days ago I returned from Paris knife show and I saw only few knives what were worth requested price, in my personal opinion of course. However I saw a lot of collectors who have bough a lot knives they never will use anyway.
But here we are speaking about usefulness, isnt it?
Crayola,
Lets do not mix knife hard use with the lack of imagination how to use any knife at all, please. Differently as the next step we should say about a fellow who makes one traffic accident after another: This guy uses his car really hard!
In my opinion to make a knife with so-called reinforced tip for someone who use his/her knife as prybar, screwdriver or something like is some kind of : Lets drive with tanks instead of cars to do not need to care about another cars, walls, posts and so on.
I really do not want to talk about ease of flesh opening because it is very far from this Forum subject and the personal experience of 99,999...% of Forumites (luckily).
Please call me ignorant if you like but high price of custom knife as itself proves nothing for me. More precisely saying it proves only that there are some fellows who are willing to pay this particular price for this particular knife. Are they ruled buy necessity or by fad there is their personal issue, not mine. Just some days ago I returned from Paris knife show and I saw only few knives what were worth requested price, in my personal opinion of course. However I saw a lot of collectors who have bough a lot knives they never will use anyway.
But here we are speaking about usefulness, isnt it?
Crayola,
Lets do not mix knife hard use with the lack of imagination how to use any knife at all, please. Differently as the next step we should say about a fellow who makes one traffic accident after another: This guy uses his car really hard!
In my opinion to make a knife with so-called reinforced tip for someone who use his/her knife as prybar, screwdriver or something like is some kind of : Lets drive with tanks instead of cars to do not need to care about another cars, walls, posts and so on.
I really do not want to talk about ease of flesh opening because it is very far from this Forum subject and the personal experience of 99,999...% of Forumites (luckily).
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Serg,
If you don't want to discuss flesh opening or hard use/abuse, then I guess there is no point in talking about or using americanized tantos, because it is in those areas that they work.
I am sorry of my post was confusing too, as you mentioned that I mixed up hard use and "lack of imagination with usage". Allow me to try to separate the two points.
First, I think that many try to use a tanto like ti were some other type of knife, say a drop point. Soem say the lack of belly on the tip makes it a bad skinner. But I have also heard of people skinning animals with the tanto tip. I think that geometry does limit applications. Obviously a curved tip would make a better skinner than a tanto tip. But that doesn't mean that tanto tips can't cut, can't skin, etc. You have to learn how to use the tool to do the job, and if the tool still won't perform, you need a different tool. Sometimes I find myself with a pencil and no sharpener around. I loved the tanto tip for sharpening pencils, as the andles were just right for sharpening for me. I loved the secondary point for scoring paper. I used the primary tip to dig into wood and to pry with. I found it quite handy. But it did take me a while to learn how to use a tanto for what it is, instead of trying to use it like a drop point knife.
my second point about hard use was that there are users out there who do use their tools hard. Maybe too hard. Strider Knives are popular among service folks because they can be used hard. Perhaps these folks should get a prybar and carry a super slicing Mora around instead, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon. So it is great that folks like the Strider guys can offer tanto blades that cut, but also will stand up to abuse thanks to the durable tips and such.
Cougar mentioned something to the effect that the tanto makes for a poor slasher. Mick Strider has posted the opposite. I'll have to go searching for Cougar's posts elsewhere on the forums (when I can search again) to get that side of the picture. I don't think that discussion about fighting with knives is beyond the scope of this thread, but that's o.k. I;ll see if the original poster brings it up before I do again.
Hey Cougar, do you have a link to a thread about fighting with tantos? I'd really liek to read it.
If you don't want to discuss flesh opening or hard use/abuse, then I guess there is no point in talking about or using americanized tantos, because it is in those areas that they work.
I am sorry of my post was confusing too, as you mentioned that I mixed up hard use and "lack of imagination with usage". Allow me to try to separate the two points.
First, I think that many try to use a tanto like ti were some other type of knife, say a drop point. Soem say the lack of belly on the tip makes it a bad skinner. But I have also heard of people skinning animals with the tanto tip. I think that geometry does limit applications. Obviously a curved tip would make a better skinner than a tanto tip. But that doesn't mean that tanto tips can't cut, can't skin, etc. You have to learn how to use the tool to do the job, and if the tool still won't perform, you need a different tool. Sometimes I find myself with a pencil and no sharpener around. I loved the tanto tip for sharpening pencils, as the andles were just right for sharpening for me. I loved the secondary point for scoring paper. I used the primary tip to dig into wood and to pry with. I found it quite handy. But it did take me a while to learn how to use a tanto for what it is, instead of trying to use it like a drop point knife.
my second point about hard use was that there are users out there who do use their tools hard. Maybe too hard. Strider Knives are popular among service folks because they can be used hard. Perhaps these folks should get a prybar and carry a super slicing Mora around instead, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon. So it is great that folks like the Strider guys can offer tanto blades that cut, but also will stand up to abuse thanks to the durable tips and such.
Cougar mentioned something to the effect that the tanto makes for a poor slasher. Mick Strider has posted the opposite. I'll have to go searching for Cougar's posts elsewhere on the forums (when I can search again) to get that side of the picture. I don't think that discussion about fighting with knives is beyond the scope of this thread, but that's o.k. I;ll see if the original poster brings it up before I do again.
Hey Cougar, do you have a link to a thread about fighting with tantos? I'd really liek to read it.
not2sharp
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This is a good subject for another thread.
I agree that the price is irrelevant. I only mentioned it to counter your arguement that the single sided grinds were adopted by the military strictly as a cost saving measure. Although, undoubtedly that has been known to happen on occasion, you are going too far when you try to expalin away an entire class of issued edge weapons.
n2s
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The reasons that I don't like the *Americanized Tanto* are that I hate the way it looks and that, for the purposes I use a knife, they do not do as good a job.
Because of the high point, I do not find that tantos are as good for cutting tasks as a sheepfoot or wharncliffe. I can do very exacting cuts with these styles that I could never do with the Buck Strider that I owned.
I do not find the Americanized tanto to be particularly hard to sharpen.
I find the traditional tanto to be a beautiful and practical blade design. Excellent for both slash and push cutting. The big problem that I have with traditional tantos is that they cost a great deal. Not that they aren't worth it, it is just that I don't have that kind of money to spend. Wish I did.
Because of the high point, I do not find that tantos are as good for cutting tasks as a sheepfoot or wharncliffe. I can do very exacting cuts with these styles that I could never do with the Buck Strider that I owned.
I do not find the Americanized tanto to be particularly hard to sharpen.
I find the traditional tanto to be a beautiful and practical blade design. Excellent for both slash and push cutting. The big problem that I have with traditional tantos is that they cost a great deal. Not that they aren't worth it, it is just that I don't have that kind of money to spend. Wish I did.
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You might want to look at the ones by Kris Cutlery. I have a 1999 tanto and it is a pretty nice knife for the $55.00 I paid for it. It is not a utility knife though. Mine has a hardwood handle but the newer ones have cord wrapped handles which I don't think look as good. They do have a traditionally wrapped tanto but the price is higher, but still in the typical high end production range.