SOG Fixed blades

Mississippi Rifleman

Mississippi Rifleman

Joined
Oct 10, 1999
Messages
309
Will SOG ever make it's current fixed blades in a new metal besides 440A? Like ATS-34 or something?

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MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY
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Fear the man that owns only one rifle,
he likely knows how to use it.
- Anonymous
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Ben Lee
Computer Science
AOL IM: MSURifleman
www2.netdoor.com/~rifleman
www2.msstate.edu/~brl2
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Hi Ben,

SOG currently uses AUS6 (formerly knives with 440A), AUS8 (formerly knives with 440C), and SK-5 Carbon steel in its fixed blades.

SOG is introducing a new knife with the amazing BG-42 steel; the X-42 Recondo. This will begin shipping in a month or two.

So, besides 440A, our fixed blades will have three steels in use.

In support of 440A & AUS6, proper heat treatment brings this steel into a realm rarely seen. It is a very user-friendly steel which allows for much of which the average users looks: blade flexibility, edge retention, ease of sharpening, corrosion resistance, and lower cost.

If there is anything else I can answer for you, please ask.

Ron@SOG



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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Ron,

Will the Tomcat or Stingray ever move up to 440C or BG-42? I've had bad experiences with 440A.

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MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY
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Fear the man that owns only one rifle,
he likely knows how to use it.
- Anonymous
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Ben Lee
Computer Science
AOL IM: MSURifleman
www2.netdoor.com/~rifleman
www2.msstate.edu/~brl2
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Hi Ben,

I can understand that you have had bad experiences with 440A. Some of this steel is poorly presented to consumers by some manufacturers. But my question is: Has you bad experience been with SOG? Our heat treating process is excellent and very highly regarded in the industry.

SOG maintains an excellent lifetime warranty on its products. If defects in the craftsmanship or materials ever happen, the defective knife would be replaced or repaired. This should calm your worries about future bad experiences with this steel.

Regarding switching some of our folders away from AUS6, that is unlikely at this time.

In your original post, you referred to fixed blades and 440A. This latter post referred to folders. By adding that variable, we have folders with ATS-34, AUS8, and upcoming with BG-42.

A factor that many knife buyers are unaware of is the cost of these more exotic steels. A knife currently using 440A could possibly double in cost by using an exotic knife steel. That would likely scare away many buyers.

Hope this information helps!

Ron@SOG

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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Ron,

I doubt that folders in those "exotic" metals would scare away anyone. It didn't happen to Benchmade, Spyderco or, now, Gerber. I've never had a SOG knife because they were made of 440A. I love the designs especially the bowies. What I would really like is a SEAL 2000 or a Tigershark in ANYTHING but 440A. What folders are in AUS8?

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MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY
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Fear the man that owns only one rifle,
he likely knows how to use it.
- Anonymous
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Ben Lee
Computer Science, Student, Senior
AOL IM: MSURifleman
www2.netdoor.com/~rifleman
www2.msstate.edu/~brl2
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Hi Ben,

Thanks for commenting back. Our research shows that a $220 Tomcat will not sell as well as one for $120. It is a fine line pleasing everyone.

I would be interested in your "bad experiences" regardless if they were SOG related or not. Part of my job at SOG is managing the Warranty Department. I can say with complete confidence that typical 440A related problems are not being seen. As a matter of fact, the SEAL Knife (and others) are rarely returned for any reason (including customer abuse/neglect). Remember that the Navy SEALs chose this knife over many others in a contest as their favoriate and most enduring knife. It certainly made them very happy and served their needs.

SOG folders in AUS8? That would be the Pentagon Elite and Mini Gentlemans (Stainless steel and carbon fiber handled models).

Anything else I can help you with, please let me know.

Ron@SOG


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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com

[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 06-07-2000).]
 
Ron, that brings me to another question. Other companies that use 440A do not have prices like SOG does. Where does the extra cost come from? For instance, the Benchmade AFCK has a ATS-34 blade, titanium liners and a their BT2 finish for the same price as the Tomcat. BTW, my experience with 440A is that it dulls very easily, rust very easily and it's weak. It is above 425 that Buck and Gerber use though, but they are moving away from it thankfully.

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MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY
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Fear the man that owns only one rifle,
he likely knows how to use it.
- Anonymous
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Ben Lee
Computer Science, Student, Senior
AOL IM: MSURifleman
www2.netdoor.com/~rifleman
www2.msstate.edu/~brl2
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Hi Ben,

Thanks once again for your comments. I have had different results with SOG's 440A than you have had with this steel. I understand and respect your opinions. If you would like to continue this conversation, either email me, or give me a call at SOG.

Respectfully,

Ron@SOG
Ron Andersen
(888) SOG-BEST

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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Ron;
I also like the SOG designs but have been put off by 440A and AUS steels. How much cost difference would there be in a large fixed blade knife with identical specs between 440A and 440C, or D2? I don't mind a reasonable extra expense for better steel, I'm just not sure what is reasonable and what is unreasonable.

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The thorn stands to defend the Rose, yet it is peaceful and does not seek conflict
 
Hi Fudo,

Steel costs are always an issue with the overall knife cost. I'm not in on materials and manufacturing costs, but have been told that the exotic steels are "significantly" more than 440A. Though a knife enthusiast might pay maybe 50% more for a knife, the average user will not. And to the average user, they will never feel the difference between 440A and 440C. You said that you wouldn't mind a "reasonable" increase, other's would. Some steels would raise the price between 50-100% on the overall knife.

Also remember: 440A from different manufacturers will have different performance. SOG's heat treatment process on 440A has been seriously respected throughout the industry.

Hope this helps.

Ron@SOG



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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
Ron,

You have to understand the consumers position here. EVERYONE is making knives now with ATS-34, 154CM, BG-42, etc and they cost the same or maybe a few dollars more than a SOG. I'm not a bladesmith, but I do know that heat treatment will make a big difference in the way that metal performs. Other companies have ruined the name of 440A though so it's a big risk for a informed knife buyer to trust it. I'd love to try one out to see how it stands up, but it's a big gamble to buy a $150 knife with a metal like 440A to see if it is better than the other companies version of 440A. BTW, Gerber has the Gator and EZ-Out in 440A and ATS-34 with only a 15%-20% increase in cost. Buck is offering their Odyssey model in ATS-34 and 420HC with only a $5 increase in price for the ATS-34 model here at 1 Stop Knife Shop.


Ben Lee
 
Sal Glesser said once that the material costs in a knife frequently were 10% or less of the cost of a production knife. The cost of profit, shipping, marketing, compliance with gov't regs, insurance, etc. taking up the remainder of the cost.
If this be true, the modest price increases other manufacturers charge for models with ATS-34 and 440C seem in line and reasonable.I have two Buck 110's with BG-42 blades. They are impeccable in manufacture have the aforementioned BG-42 steel and were designed to retail for around $100. This is approximately 250% of the average retail of your average Buck 110 here(about $35.00) but it is still $100. I am not trying to be hypercritical here but SOG has some excellent designs and the only thing that keeps me from buying is the steel involved. I believe that heat treat is super important but it seems that putting a super heat treat on 440A (and AUS_whatever) is like putting a contintal kit on a golf cart,if you catch my meaning.
BTW if you ever make a NW Ranger with a plain edge in a kydex sheath, I'm your man. Especially in BG-42 or 154-CM.

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The thorn stands to defend the Rose, yet it is peaceful and does not seek conflict

[This message has been edited by fudo (edited 06-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by fudo (edited 06-14-2000).]
 
I second that motion.

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MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY
--------------------------------------
Fear the man that owns only one rifle,
he likely knows how to use it.
- Anonymous
--------------------------------------
Ben Lee
Computer Science, Student, Senior
AOL IM: MSURifleman
www2.netdoor.com/~rifleman
www2.msstate.edu/~brl2
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Hi Fudo and Ben,

Sal may be right in some cases, but it is likely he was speaking generally. But with rare or exotic steels, prices accelerate.

Regarding consumers' opinions, SOG is a growing company and we have never sold more knives than we are now. Every consumer must evaluate what they are specifically looking for, then buy it. SOG makes no apologies for the materials we use or designs we implement. We will not impress everyone, but are targeting our products at the widest number of practical users in the market. Both our sales and customers are showing consumer confidence.

I'm sorry that you feel 440A does not live up to your expectations and you have every right to hold that opinion. As you know, we offer knives in various steels to meet a variety of needs/desires.

Ron@SOG


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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
My curiosity was piqued by the discussion of various blade steels and their pricing.
So, I went to Admiral steels website and went comparison shopping.
A bar of ATS34, 3/16th X 2 X 18 inches costs 17.56 dollars when you buy six or more.
A bar of 440C of the exact same dimensions costs 17.46 dollars.
That's a difference of 10 cents!
Now, I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that SOG buys in bigger quantities than that.
As far as extra cost of tooling, what I have heard from makers experienced in working with ATS34 is that it is very easy to work when it hasn't been hardened. You could probably switch to ATS34 with very little change in your production. You might have to use a different heat treat as I don't know what SOG's heat treating process entails.
Now, I am speculating here and I have been very satisfied with every SOG knife I have ever owned, including the ones made from 440A like the Seal Team 2000, but I have no doubt that many people feel the same as has been expressed in this thread. Revitalizing the SOG product line with new steels would be a good move by SOG for it's customers.
I think that alot of people are holding off on buying a SOG knife due to the usage of 440A and 440C. That's probably one of the reasons that the new line of knives that use steel such as BG-42 have been received with such enthusiasm.
Then again, when you already have the gear for manufacturing blades from BG-42, why not switch the entire line over to BG-42? Or ATS34 when the price difference is a mere 10 cents. Probably less where SOG buys their steel.
The price of the steel alone cannot be the reason for a 100 dollar price increase. Can it?


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Regards
Joshua "Kage" Calvert

"Move like Water, strike like Thunder..."
 
Hi Joshua (and everyone),

Thanks for your post. As stated earlier in this thread, I am not in on the specifics of what the various costs are relative to various materials, manufacturing, etc. I've only been told that using more exotic steels seriously increases the price of a knife. "Seriously" is all I have to go on. When "price point" (the point at which consumers will either choose to buy or not buy relative to a pricing decision) is an issue, a little could be "seriously" a lot.

Some extreme knife enthusiasts, like many people in the forums, are timid of 440A. I can understand that. I am not here to debate that AST-34 or BG-42 or any other steel is the best. SOG is concerned with putting out a knife that will serve a broad spectrum of knife users...and serve them well. The average knife user will get very frustrated with ATS-34 or BG-42 when it comes to sharpening. I have talked with many of them myself. They say it is "just too difficult." Also, the average knife user cannot tell the difference between various steels (such as 440C and ATS-34); but a knife enthusiast can. That is why we market some of our products in a very, very high quality 440A for the vast knife user at large. The non-average knife user, such as a knife enthusiast/collector, will wish for more exotic and hard materials. That is fine. For SOG, it comes to marketing to as many people as will buy our products. And currently, that is a very large and growing population.

SOG does use a variety of steels to meet a variety of interests. I did a rough tally (this is rough, not exact) of our folders and fixed blades and from which steel they are made: BG-42 (2), ATS-34 (6), 440C (6), 440A (19), and SK-5 carbon (2). Here, there is a bit of something for everyone.

Regarding switching our entire line over to BG-42 (or other), I can't say that will or will not happen. Some of our knives have won us awards for overall design and materials. Because of that, it is possible for us to be cautious with altering the original version of a success. We are constantly looking for what will be good for the growth of SOG. If we felt that converting our whole line to BG-42 would be a financial windfall, I'm sure we would be strongly considering it. But at this time, that windfall is not evident.

I sincerely hope that you can appreciate that there is never the possibility of pleasing everyone. At SOG, we are trying to please the most (and it seems to be working).

Ron@SOG


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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
The typical 440A usually is a less desireable blade steel for most, but SOG's 440A seems to be better than the 440A's we are all accustomed to. I don't know if it is their heat treatment or what, but it does seem to hold an edge longer than others that use 440A. Speaking from experience with my TOMCAT! What is nice about 440A is it is very much rust resistance compared to the higher end stainless steels being used.

If you use the knife in a wet environment alot and are the type of person to not clean or wipe the blade constantly, than 440A would be the way to go,,,,,but yes, you will need to sharpen the blade more often than the other high end steels. I too would prefer a higher end steel than 440A because I do clean and wipe my blades contantly, but SOG's 440A seems to be the exception over others 440A blades! In other words, SOG's 440A breaks the rules!!

Mark
smile.gif



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"Knife Collectors / Knuts Are Sharp People!"
(most of the time that is)
 
Carnifex- What was the price of bar stock in 440A? Thanks to you we know that ATS-34 and 440C are close to the same price but how does that compare with the price of the steel that SOG uses? Thanks for doing the legwork for us.

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The thorn stands to defend the Rose, yet it is peaceful and does not seek conflict
 
Hell, I'd rather have them in 440C/AUS8A than ATS-34. It's too brittle. I can't do any real work with my ATS-34 blades because they break easy. I can't tell how many times I've broken my Benchmade AFCK blade.

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--------------------------------------
MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY
--------------------------------------
Fear the man that owns only one rifle,
he likely knows how to use it.
- Anonymous
--------------------------------------
Ben Lee
Computer Science, Student, Senior
AOL IM: MSURifleman
www2.netdoor.com/~rifleman
www2.msstate.edu/~brl2
--------------------------------------
 
Yeapers, I hear ya and agree with ya Ben! I have been saying that about ATS-34 for years now!
ATS-34 is too brittle for my liking as well!
AFCK, same here! After the blade on mine busted twice and my buddy's AFCK blade chiped and broke too, mine got tossed aside. Granted I like CPM-420V and BG-42 the best of all, but at least with SOG's Tomcat's 440A, you ain't going to bust it! So you have to sharpen it a little more often, but what the hey, that's why I have a Spyderco Sharpmaker! Actually, using the Sharpmaker is somewhat fun too!
smile.gif


Mark

 
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