Soldered guard durability?

DeadboxHero

DeadboxHero

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I have a knife that I'm thinking of modifying in the future. It's a lot of work to solder a guard, messy and can jeopardize the temper.


My question is can a soldered guard take more punishment?

In my mind, I imagine the soldering would still break due to shock vibration from batoning. Any thoughts? Anyone have soldered guards on hard use knives?
 
I would think it varies from maker to maker. I have a 1966 Randall Model 1 with a soldered guard that is tight after 50 years of normal use but no batoning.
 
Thing is battoning is a very modern phenomenon, no one would dream of it years gone back. People also knew how to get things mended when broken. Tools, knives and swords were very expensive so people didn't do silly things with them.

As for your question, depends how its done but soldering is not a weld, so never going to be as strong. The reason so many knives are built today with full tangs and from one bar is the cost of mending something is more than the worth of the item. Crossguards and such are one weak point, and another component. When done well should last the lifetime of the blade.
Things like battoning isn't normal use. Whats wrong with an axe anyway??
 
The solder seals the blade/tang and guard. Keeps moisture from getting under the handle.

It is not structural. Either the guard is fitted properly and won't come loose or it isn't.

Silver solder will not effect the temper of the blade. The temps are too low.
And the heat is applied from the tang side as well.

Hope this helps...
 
I'm siding with the Finnish motto: if you need a guard on a knife, you shouldn't own a knife (unless you're a child). The exception is for military combat knives (like Randall Model 1,2,etc). Have used, collected, made, customized knives for over 60 years and have never had the need of a guard on a knife (except my Randall 1 which I got for 'nam).
Rich
 
It really depends on what you're calling "solder". Low temp solder like for plumbing isn't very strong and won't affect temper. "Silver solder" is quite strong (it is used to build bicycle frames) and is well into the temper range of most blade steels.
 
Murindo said:
I would think it varies from maker to maker. I have a 1966 Randall Model 1 with a soldered guard that is tight after 50 years of normal use but no batoning.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't baton that beautiful knife either nice.
GREENJACKET said:
Thing is battoning is a very modern phenomenon, no one would dream of it years gone back. People also knew how to get things mended when broken. Tools, knives and swords were very expensive so people didn't do silly things with them.

As for your question, depends how its done but soldering is not a weld, so never going to be as strong. The reason so many knives are built today with full tangs and from one bar is the cost of mending something is more than the worth of the item. Crossguards and such are one weak point, and another component. When done well should last the lifetime of the blade.
Things like battoning isn't normal use. Whats wrong with an axe anyway??
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. I'm aware of axes and the old ways but I love the power and versatility of these modern survival knives.



Ebbtide said:
The solder seals the blade/tang and guard. Keeps moisture from getting under the handle.

It is not structural. Either the guard is fitted properly and won't come loose or it isn't.

Silver solder will not effect the temper of the blade. The temps are too low.
And the heat is applied from the tang side as well.

Hope this helps...
Click to expand...

Dang it, so there is no structural improvment?

I'm stumped now.
 
RX-79G said:
It really depends on what you're calling "solder". Low temp solder like for plumbing isn't very strong and won't affect temper. "Silver solder" is quite strong (it is used to build bicycle frames) and is well into the temper range of most blade steels.
Click to expand...


Have you done this before?

Would it be possible to use the stronger solder with huge aluminum plates clamped on each side to draw heat from the blade?
 
GREENJACKET said:
Thing is battoning is a very modern phenomenon, no one would dream of it years gone back.
Click to expand...

Sure they did.
The "modern" thing is calling it batonning.
Well, calling it that, and dumbasses trying to split entire logs...
 
Use a different knife for that like a Becker, ESEE or Busse. Or a saw, ax, hatchet, or similar appropriate tool.
 
Rich S said:
I'm siding with the Finnish motto: if you need a guard on a knife, you shouldn't own a knife (unless you're a child). The exception is for military combat knives (like Randall Model 1,2,etc). Have used, collected, made, customized knives for over 60 years and have never had the need of a guard on a knife (except my Randall 1 which I got for 'nam).
Rich
Click to expand...

I agree, haha

But here in the US, there is a strong opinion that a great knife has a great guard.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Have you done this before?

Would it be possible to use the stronger solder with huge aluminum plates clamped on each side to draw heat from the blade?
Click to expand...

I have only done brazing on non-knives. Since you use a torch, I don't see why you couldn't do it just like they do with torch tempering - put the part you don't want affected in water.

However, an experienced silver solderer/brazer may be able to localize the heat enough for this to not matter. And this may be part of the reason many traditional knives have fairly long ricassos - to isolate the edge from the heated area.


We're not sure what you're doing, exactly, so it is hard to say what the best solution for what you're doing might be. There are a ton of ways to attach a bolster or guard, and maybe low temp solder along with other methods would work very well.

In terms of abuse, I think you could make the argument that a "floating" guard that is just mechanically trapped between handle and blade is able to take a lot of abuse because there is no join to fail. Again, it depends on what you're doing.
 
RX-79G said:
I have only done brazing on non-knives. Since you use a torch, I don't see why you couldn't do it just like they do with torch tempering - put the part you don't want affected in water.

However, an experienced silver solderer/brazer may be able to localize the heat enough for this to not matter. And this may be part of the reason many traditional knives have fairly long ricassos - to isolate the edge from the heated area.


We're not sure what you're doing, exactly, so it is hard to say what the best solution for what you're doing might be. There are a ton of ways to attach a bolster or guard, and maybe low temp solder along with other methods would work very well.

In terms of abuse, I think you could make the argument that a "floating" guard that is just mechanically trapped between handle and blade is able to take a lot of abuse because there is no join to fail. Again, it depends on what you're doing.
Click to expand...

Floating Guard?!
Nice

What's that?

Any pics?

I'm completely ignorant.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Floating Guard?!
Nice

What's that?

Any pics?

I'm completely ignorant.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about a guard with a tang sized slotted hole in it that is held in place by the blade on the one side and the handle on the other side. A traditional stacked birch or leather handle is just a bunch of guard-like pieces trapped between the blade and pommel. Take off the pommel and they just fall back off.

The method for attaching a guard is driven in part by the shape of the blade, tang and handle.
 
RX-79G said:
I'm talking about a guard with a tang sized slotted hole in it that is held in place by the blade on the one side and the handle on the other side. A traditional stacked birch or leather handle is just a bunch of guard-like pieces trapped between the blade and pommel. Take off the pommel and they just fall back off.

The method for attaching a guard is driven in part by the shape of the blade, tang and handle.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see.

I didn't know the name.

Thanks
 
Silver SOLDER is tin with about 5 % siver . Stays bright , is food safe ,melts at about 450 F.will not normally effect temper.
Silver BRAZE melts about 900 F and above !! will messup temper !!!
Both of these attain max strtegth with gap of 0.003 " best capillary action with this gap also.
 
mete said:
Silver SOLDER is tin with about 5 % siver . Stays bright , is food safe ,melts at about 450 F.will not normally effect temper.
Silver BRAZE melts about 900 F and above !! will messup temper !!!
Both of these attain max strtegth with gap of 0.003 " best capillary action with this gap also.
Click to expand...

Is that because 450-500° F is unlikely to reach the edge above 350°, or just that a brief heat above a previous 350-400° temper isn't going to change it?
 
stabman said:
Sure they did.
The "modern" thing is calling it batonning.
Well, calling it that, and dumbasses trying to split entire logs...
Click to expand...

Yes, they produced loads of logs and kindling with the right tools for the job; they didn't use their dedicated fighting tools. I can't think of many working tools that had cross guards.

I like a lower guard on anything that is going to be pushed. Scandinavians used to eat with their puukko's and these were thin and sharp, an eating tool rather than work tool. Then they had their fighting tools. They used hatchets and axes a whole lot more and I'm not convinced the modern bushcraft puukko is correct being too thick.
I just think that because we have better steel we are using no guard designs with far too much force. Having seen what can go wrong I'm not a fan at all; give we a decent guard or at least something to stop the hand ridding forward onto the edge.


If constructed well then a guard should last the lifetime of the blade/handle. Sorry can't help further on how its done.
 
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