Some 1095 questions

Q

qmunoz

Joined
Jun 13, 2011
Messages
18
I have been making some 1/4'' thick, 5'' blade hunting/survival knives using some 1095 from admiral steel. Plasma cut out, grind, file and sand to shape. I am also a glassmaker and have the use of a hot-shop where I have been doing some of my heat treating. Glass is worked in a forced gas/air type oven that gets upwards of 2200+ depending on how you control it, so it provides a good, clean environment to get up to critical temperature before the quench, + temp controlled ovens. Have had a successful blade come out using 1030 motor oil, and one using heated water for the quench. Both blades passed the "brass rod test", and seem to slice through just about everything I've tried to cut. Now I'm Hooked though!
However have tried finishing a couple of blades in my neighbor's coal forge (closer than the hot shop), and have had each one crack after quenching in water. The coal fire gives a nice random pitted surface to the polished steel, but have had each blade crack after the quench, before tempering. Brought the steel to temp 2-3 x's for each blade to normalize. Only using water because Admiral tech sheets say to , so I started there.
What is the most likely reason stress cracks happen? Tips for heat treating in a coal fire vs gas? Should quenching water be heated to a specific temp?
Appreciate any input, and thanks for your time.
 
Cracks happen because the blade cools to quickly I believe. I think the water is bringing your temp down too fast. I've used Canola oil with some success. Quench in 130°F Canola oil for seven to eight seconds, keep the blade moving.
 
I have a friend that does only clear glass in his kilns and he will not do metal in them as he says the carbon will contaminate the kiln then the glass. I am no expert here, just repeating what he said. What do you think?
 
Haven't had any problems putting metal into the kilns. Usually use a kiln shelf or some type of refractory material to place them on. Unless one were to be slumping glass, the kilns are usually used for cooling from around 950 down to room temperature. So really only problem can happen if you don't clean off all the oil, or if the knife were to be touching an element in the kiln. No carbon burning off and making any kind of soot, unless the knife isn't clean. The kilns work nice for the first tempering heat, because I can go from the finished quench to temper heat right away.
 
Do you think any benefit to heating up the water? Was thinking maybe a camp stove so I can have that going and keep at proper temp, but the same set-up would work for oil too I suppose.
 
Check out the pinned thread "Newbies good info here", sub thread by Kevin Cashen "Working the three steel types". Sorry no link, I'm on my phone ;-)
 
Also does any one know if it is necessary to normalize steel piece if you are only removing material (grinding,sanding,filing)? Still using 1095.
 
Ok, brace yourself and sit down.

The brass rod test is useless
1095 is not a steel you want to be starting with if you do not know what you are doing, and you clearly do not
read the section in this link http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types. on hypereutechtoid steel, which 1095 is and you may very likely decide to order some 1084 from Aldo ( http://www.njsteelbaron.com ) because it is a good beginner steel, and ideally suited to the no-tech heat treatment.
There are many reasons not to use coal forges for knives, especially if you do not know what you are doing
Admiral's 1095 is crap

how hot were you getting your 1095 in your oven? and for how long did you hold it at that temperature?

sorry to seem to be jumping all over you, that is really not my intent, a little shock therapy yes, but I'll help you through this if you let me (and so will a bunch of very friendly folks, welcome to Bladeforums)

please read the info in the "newbies good info here" stickies at least on heat treatment and steel selection, then we can have a conversation

-Page
 
I would suggest you listen to Sunshadow. 1095 can be an occasional headache even to those who use it on a regular basis, and know what they're doing.
 
qmunoz said:
Do you think any benefit to heating up the water? Was thinking maybe a camp stove so I can have that going and keep at proper temp, but the same set-up would work for oil too I suppose.
Click to expand...


Heating oil with an open flame stove will set you on fire someday.
Maybe not for quite a while, but someday.


1095 requires excellent heat control and a fast oil quench.
The industrial specs that specify a water quench are correct, but do not apply to thin sections such as knives.
A proper fast quench oil will prevent many failures.

1/4" thick blades are common in beginners - Randall and Busse are serious influences on this, but thinner cuts better.

Page- Sunshadow's comments are absolutely worth paying attention to.


Using Aldo's 1084 will solve half your problems before you have them.



I post this quite often, and since you are still on a post count of 4, I'm going to hit you with it.



The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V15

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings & the Loveless book. Google books thread


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

1095 is a good low cost steel with great results, but needs very good temperature control and proper fast quench oil – If you need more info, read Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you want to heat treat yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel, 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for knifemaking.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://www.atlasknife.com

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309



Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here


V15 Added Craftsman
 
Last edited:
"The brass rod test is useless"
Why useless, please explain? And is there a better test/ method to know if successful.

"how hot were you getting your 1095 in your oven? and for how long did you hold it at that temperature?"
400 degrees, 2 hrs, 3x's with a room temp cool in between each cycle.
 
"how hot were you getting your 1095 in your oven? and for how long did you hold it at that temperature?"
For the hardening I brought it slowly up to around 1550, non magnetic and then a little while longer. Held for about 5 min then quenched. 3-5 seconds in quench in/out till cool. Then onto a piece of kiln shelf and into a 400 degree pre heated oven for 2 hrs, and cool to room temp. Once home, I did another two, 2hr cycles @ 400, with room temp cool in between.
 
Here is the optimal H/T for 1095. Bring it to 1200 and take it out and let it cool in still air for a stress relieve. Bring it to 1475 soak for 6-8 min. and quench in a fast quench oil such as Parks 50. If you continue to use water, brine may help reduce the amount of cracked blades buy actual quench oil will be better. Temper will depend on the as quenched hardness and the working hardness desired. You can start at about 400 and work your way up. The best test for your knives is to have them tested for hardness to see if they are in your targeted hardness and then actually test them for their intended use. For example skinning game, chopping saplings, or slicing tomatoes. Actual testing is the only sure way to know how a knife performs for a given task. Hope this helps.
 
I am not an expert by any means. But from what you've said. I think temp is allot of your problem. I use mainly 1095 and W2, and have for the last 5 years. Here are the problems I see:
1095 goes critical around 1475 F not 1550. with an extra soak in an uncontrolled oven at 2200 F you are probably breaking 1600 F from my experience this is not good. I never let steel temp break 1575.
You are using water. not good. Use a salt brine ( I use 1 lb of salt to 1.5 gal of water) heat brine to 130 F. Just a note you will probably still crack 1 or 2 out of 5 blades. I highly recommend Parks #50 quench oil. ( Never cracked a blade in Parks 50)
Get your steel from Aldo ( New Jersey Steel Baron) Admirals 1095 is moderate at best.
I highly recommend getting 1084 from Aldo. You will not notice a performance difference and it's allot more forgiving than 1095. Also with 1084 a decent quench oil or Canola oil will give good results.
Don't get me wrong 1095 is a great steel. 95% of my blades are 1095. I use it and W2 mainly for the hamon effect with a clay quench. I still crack 1 or 2 blades out of 5.in a water quench.
Another thing don't linger from quench to temper. Go straight from quench to a 425 deg F oven right after quench for 1.5 hrs. I have had blades crack an hour after quench laying on the bench.
Darrin is dead on.
 
using the coal forge you have no real way of knowing what temperature you are achieving, you probably overheated the steel. What does the surface inside the crack look like? if it is fine and smooth, almost glassy (I doubt it will be) you had good temp control, if you can see a sandy looking surface, you overheated it and got out of control grain growth, if you have not gotten all of the sulphur out of the fire it will ruin your steel. Darren gives a good 1095 HT recipe

-Page
 
Darrin and Page have it right... Read the stickies, understand the process and make good knives. Anything else and you are just wandering in the dark. If you just want to make a couple knives as a fun project with no intent on becoming a legit maker, then follow Darrin's recipe.(There is nothing wrong with that, either... you don't have to be a knifemaker to make a knife.)

The brass rod test tells you more about edge geometry than heat treat.

(Man, I use a lot of bold to emphasize key points.:p)


Rick
 
Last edited:
Thank you all for your advice and knowledge. So much information out there, just have to jump off sometimes. Darren, thank you for the heat treat recipe. Still have some 1095 blanks cut out so will try it out soon. Will also order some Bruno steel. I hear good and bad about admiral steel, why is the steel only moderate? Was recommended to me by another knife maker.
Page - The area inside the crack is not smooth and looks lightly sandblasted. So bad temp control. Haven't had this problem using the glass oven, also think that it is more controlled (You can dial heat up or down, but no digital readout on the unit). I do have digital controls on the kilns so to bring up to exactly 1200 or 1475 fairly easy. Have made one knife that I held in the kiln at 1500-1530 and then quenched in canola oil but the edge rolled on the brass rod test so I have to try again. Of the two successful blades so far both have been able to chop through a piece of hickory, 4'' branch, and then slice tomato. Any one know of another way to test the integrity of a knife?
I guess my next question for anyone listening would be is it better to have temperature control over the piece using a kiln to bring to specific temp, or is better success to be had from using a gas forge so you can look at the steel and visual/magnet test for temp? Will still be using 1095 stock that I have left.
 
If your kiln is accurate you will benefit from it using 1095. How have you calibrated your eye? (Serious question... many makers are accurate in that respect)

Rick
 
Canola oil is too slow for 1095, it will work for 1084 if heated to 130f. I test my heat treat sometimes by shaving the corner of a steel bar, if the edge is still good after that I did OK. Non-magnetic will only tell you that you you have gotten your steel to the Curie point (1414f ) which is not in any way related to Austentite formation (so-called critical)

-page
 
qmunoz said:
"The brass rod test is useless" Why useless, please explain?
Click to expand...

Because pretty much any steel ground thin enough will flex without chipping, heat-treated or not. Thin spring-tempered stock will flex dozens of times and return to true, but won't hold an edge worth spit. On the other hand, excellent steel, properly HT'ed with a moderately thick edge or high sharpening angle will neither chip nor flex on the rod, thus "failing".

The best way to test a knife is to use the dickens out of it, in the way it was designed to be used. Passarounds are great; let some friends, your local butcher or internet buddies use it for a while and see what they think. If it works well, abuse it beyond it's original intent and see how long it takes to break.

EDIT: Hope I don't step on anyone's toes here... I'm curious as to why you chose 1095 in the first place. It's a pain to HT/quench right; in my experience 1080/1084 will stand right next to it all day long and is much easier to HT (less expensive, too). I'm an O1 guy myself... point is there are several carbon steels that will match or out-perform 1095 with less hassles.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top