Some chopping experience.

nozh2002

nozh2002

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I cut out tree in from the backyard and have bunch of branches. I decide to utilize it and make nice sticks to use in the same backyard for flowers etc... So I had to clean branches from small "sub branches" chop them in correct size etc. It is perfect job for knife rather then axe or hatchet. Because it require not only chopping, but cutting off smallest branches as well. And I do chopping branches on wooden base so blade hit base a bit as well.

And so I use first perfect in all term chopper - Ranger Knives RD6.

Perfect shape and size, perfect grind, perfect weight and balance, excellent handle, perfect steel for this job 5160, but most important - reasonable price, about $70 as well as I remember...

RangerKnives-RD6-07.jpg


...also just gorgeous look.

It has plastic coating, G10 handle slabs and sheath was part of the purchase.

Of course doing this job with RD6 was more like pleasure. It require little effort to chop because I just let gravity and Newton laws do job for me, just guiding falling blade to target.

However after this I see by naked eye under bright lamp micro bends all over the edge. It was my standard 30 degree polished hair whittling edge initially.

Then I get my heaviest Dozier - KS7, which some "experts" label as not suitable for chopping and heavy work - because steel is brittle. So I do some reality check working with this knife (today) on same amount of work.

Dozier-KS7-03.jpg


It is way lighter 9.19 oz vs 14.24 oz and 1 inch smaller, it also has concave grind vs flat grind. However edge is quite thick. It has hard micarta handle and also had sheath as part of purchase. Price was over $220 as well as I remember.

First what I feel - not enough weight (with excellent balance). It did not have enough inertia to chop free hanging sub-branch from branch I hold in my arm. Same with chopping branch on wooden base - this require more attention to hit with front of the blade. Otherwise, when I learn how to use it right it do job done as good as RD6 and mostly because of better sharpness.

After same amount of work, I inspect the edge and also found small bends (but not chips!) however density of this deformation was about 3-4 times smaller and also size of this deformations was probably three times shorter and twice thinner.

So I am very pleased with both knives. RD6 show better performance in terms of easy use. KS7 shows that whatever someone came up based on theory that harder steel suppose to be more brittle just has nothing to do with real life, and Dozier's HT is just special. It performs well if account weight and size and steel also proves that it is best.

If consider price difference between RD6 and KS7 I think I can accept the difference in edge holding during this chopping.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Vassilli wrote:

nozh2002 said:
KS7 shows that whatever someone came up based on theory that harder steel suppose to be more brittle just has nothing to do with real life, and Dozier's HT is just special. It performs well if account weight and size and steel also proves that it is best.
Click to expand...

Well, maybe and maybe not. First, you don't state the hardness for either blade. Could be Dozier holds the hardness down a bit on this particular knife. Second, cutting relatively small branches is not that big a challenge for knives of this type. I have batoned small, thin, S30V blades through weather hardened knots and not produced any dents or chips. Now if the blade binds and you twist it out you might obtain different results. Third, hitting an inclusion or an underlying rock might show significant difference between D2 and 5160. I have chipped INFI blades while chopping vegetation simply because I struck a hidden rock. No, the chip was not very large and I was able to sharpen it out fairly easily, but it does happen even with INFI. On the other hand I was chopping off some spruce branches using a fairly well known 1095 steel knife made for chopping and was stunned when dime size chunks of the edge chipped out. I hit no inclusions and I don't think I twisted the blade out any more vigorously than I have done many, many times with other "chopping" knives.
 
Steelhed said:
Vassilli wrote:



Well, maybe and maybe not. First, you don't state the hardness for either blade. Could be Dozier holds the hardness down a bit on this particular knife. Second, cutting relatively small branches is not that big a challenge for knives of this type. I have batoned small, thin, S30V blades through weather hardened knots and not produced any dents or chips. Now if the blade binds and you twist it out you might obtain different results. Third, hitting an inclusion or an underlying rock might show significant difference between D2 and 5160. I have chipped INFI blades while chopping vegetation simply because I struck a hidden rock. No, the chip was not very large and I was able to sharpen it out fairly easily, but it does happen even with INFI. On the other hand I was chopping off some spruce branches using a fairly well known 1095 steel knife made for chopping and was stunned when dime size chunks of the edge chipped out. I hit no inclusions and I don't think I twisted the blade out any more vigorously than I have done many, many times with other "chopping" knives.
Click to expand...

As I sad I chop branches on same tree base not on the air so it get good hit. Anyway the point is - if steel does cut very well it does not mean that it will not chop as well. This is not like - some steels are for cutting only and some are for chopping only. In other words if steel chops - it is not excuse for it to not be able to cut. Dozier D2 cuts very well and chops very well too, as well as many other steels. And it stand chopping in terms of edge deformations better then "chopping" steel - 5260 and it also cuts better then any. Howerver 5260 priced way less then Dozier's D2 and so it is OK to me.

I am not sure about twisting - I guess I just chop and do not pay attention too much did it get twisted or not. As I mentioned before, spending some time in the Russian forest, I am not big fan of doing with knife axe's job, branches have a lot of little things which easy to cut off then chop off so knife is more appropriate, but it is axe - the tool what humanity uses for chopping.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Cool! Nice pics, as always, Vassili. :thumbup:

I would guess that if I absolutely had to chop something and all I had was the Dozier I would be OK. Of course I would actually like to have both with me.:D
 
StotheE said:
if the rd6 got micro bends from chopping its a pos...
Click to expand...

I dont really see what that contributes to this thread, but for causing trouble. :thumbdn:
 
The axe: the tool that humanity uses for chopping. This is one of the best comments to date from our friend in Scandinavia. Leave the Dozier blades for skinning, the RD6 for tactical applications, but let the axe reign as the undisputed 'master' of the chopper realm, a fact that numerous woodsmen of the past have long heralded.
 
An axe is the best tool for chopping wood (trees and logs) more than say 3 or4 inches diameter. Smaller than that and the weight is no longer needed or justified. A hatchet may work better than a large bladed knife, but not enough to carry one all the time. A large knife can be applied in a variety of ways, and it this wide utility that recommends it over an axe or hatchet if you can only carry one bladed implement. Ideally, I would prefer to carry a medium, or even small fixed blade knife, and an axe or hatchet. Let's face it though, we sometimes find ourselves in situations where axe carry is counter productive due to weight, and size. You have to ask yourself, why do large knives (machete, bolo, parang, golok, etc.) figure so prominently in so many cultures where wood gathering is an important survival factor. The reason must be utilitarian, not ornamentation or aesthetics. They work, and they work in a wide variety of applications.

For clarification, I do not consider either of the knives talked about in this thread as being of the large variety. These are medium sized knives with good utility, but neither of them should be chosen as a primary chopping tool. For me large knives start at blade lengths of about 9 to 10 inches, and the best are probably around 12 to 14 inches. Beyond that and chopping ability goes up, but overall utility starts to go down for the same reasons I listed for the axe.
 
Steels do differ in their hardness, but the differences are not likely to have much practical significance when chopping soft wood. In my limited, highly biased, unscientific opinion, the quality of hardening and tempering can be more significant in this regard than the species of steel (assuming modern tool steels of good or better quality). The best knives I have used are hardened on the cutting edge, then tempered (made "softer" but tougher) at the spine. This results in a blade that takes and keeps an excellent edge, but also holds up well under heavy use. However, this is a multi-step process that requires a highly skilled maker heat treating his or her blades slowly, one at a time, testing the result, treating some more, etc. until the steel is performing exactly how he or she wants. Such blades do not come cheap.
 
I'm actually surprised that either one had any bending or damage. Its possible that the smaller dents in the Dozier are due to the lighter impacts of the lighter knife. Also, the Kershaw Outcast was/is D2, and I havent seen any reports of damage from wood on it. Of course, most people dont sharpen it to the same 15 deg/side as you do. I've come to the conclusion that most steels can be tougher than people give them credit for, especially after having an M2 knife take the "drop onto concrete" test from 6' with no tip damage, just dulling. It was spec'ed at 63.5-65 HRc. Hopefully I'll get a chance to make a heavier one soon and find out what that does in the drop test.
 
In many cases here I see that choosing knife over axe because it is lighter, then people forgot about this reason and focused on knives chosing heavier and heavier just because they chops better then lightweight knife - for obvious reason. But this journey leads them to knives which heavier then axe but which does not chops of course better then axe.

And because they focused on chopping - major purpose of knife - cutting got lost. In result there is heavy knife which of course does not chop as good as axe with same or smaller weight (and more compact), and as a side effect does not hold an edge very well.

So what the point to have heavier tool which does not perform as good as axe and does not perform as good as knife?

In my past in Russian forest at winter (which is way colder then soft Scandinavian winters - they are well protected by warm Gulfstreem there) one medium axe - hatchet was more then enough for making good night long fire and small camp works for group from 3 to 10. We did not build log houses going out for hiking trips... But you need knife if you lost axe handle one or other way and have to fix one or made new. However for this reason - it has to hold edge well! And of course it should not be big.

I think long knives are needed for cutting through the jungles - machetes. And probably for butcher shop - to nicely slice big piece of meat for client.

Anybody know any other practical use for big knives?

...May be for fighting but top of this kind of weapon evolution is saber of shashka. It also should not be heavy to do some fencing.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
me2 said:
I'm actually surprised that either one had any bending or damage. Its possible that the smaller dents in the Dozier are due to the lighter impacts of the lighter knife. Also, the Kershaw Outcast was/is D2, and I havent seen any reports of damage from wood on it. Of course, most people dont sharpen it to the same 15 deg/side as you do. I've come to the conclusion that most steels can be tougher than people give them credit for, especially after having an M2 knife take the "drop onto concrete" test from 6' with no tip damage, just dulling. It was spec'ed at 63.5-65 HRc. Hopefully I'll get a chance to make a heavier one soon and find out what that does in the drop test.
Click to expand...

First of all - impact was same, they both do same job - chopping branch and you need for this same impact and I did not do over kill with RD6. Second of all this is not very visible bends, I need quite bright light and look very close - of course I was looking myself on my own knife - not reports on Outcast (honestly I do not see too much reports on Outcast really and if I do not see too much reports on something it may mean only thet no one did this report for reason different then it just not getting damage...)

I like to see some statistical data on this not damaged tip. I had M2 knives I dropped and they have damage.

Now I do not like this talks about "paper thin" edge. I did enough research on many knives and 15 degree per side is standard edge for most manufacturers. But for Bark river knives which have reputation of tough etc. angle is 22-25 degree (or 11-12.5 per side) on different knives with factory edge. So this is good enough angle for Mike Stuart for his outdoorsman knives. But of course for so many years of making knives he also know how to make steel performs so he do not have to put huge angles and thick edge.

Thanks, Vassili
 
So, you were able to get through the branches with just one swing with both knives, even if it took some practice? Still, lighter knives have lower impact.

I dont know what talk about paper thin edges you mean. 15 deg/side is a good edge angle for general purpose use in good steel, but most people dont go that fine, and fewer still will do it for a chopping knife. Spyderco and some Benchmades are the only ones I've bought that regularly come with edges less than 20-25 degrees per side. My Kershaw Vapor was about 25/side, but after thinning it down, it did fine with about 15 per side with touchups on the 20 degree Sharpmaker slots.

My M2 knife is really light, and has a Puukko style convex grind. Heavier knives will hit harder, and possibly take damage. I did break about 1/16" off the tip throwing it when I missed the cardboard and hit a piece of steel. The impact was much harder from throwing than from just dropping. Also, what do you define as damage? I was expecting the thing to break into 2 or 3 pieces.
 
^ you guys really need to stop polluting these threads with your toolish behavior.
 
Hey Vassili, you should check out the Scrapyard Dogfather.

I put what I think is a slightly thinner than 15 degrees per side edge on mine and I can chop down a tree with it and still be able to cleanly shave arm hair. The steel is well suited for what this knife is going to be used for. Honestly I don't have a single cutting tool I use that I feel 15 degrees per side would be too thin, whether it's a 2 inch EDC pocket knife or my full sized Fiskars Axe.

I didn't get the big knife thing for a while, but after using one for a while I can see their merit. An axe will still outchop my Dogfather, and a machete will clear trail better, and a small fixed better will carve wood better, but this tool will do an acceptable job at all tasks. I can hack away thorns and brush from my camp site, chop through 6 inch diameter logs that have fallen across trails, use it as a draw knife for smoothing out bows, spears etc., carve wood using the choil to choke up etc. It's a very good tool for certain jobs, even better than an axe for stuff like limbing trees or thick branches, and it will cut up large melons with more finesse than a hatchet would. Of course this won't suit everyone, some would still rather carry an axe and a small knife, and that's fine. But for me I've found the big knife thing works well, and I have a lot of fun on the side.

Either way you might be interested to take a look at what I've done with my big knife. Slices fine too since putting a thin edge on it.

wvr8fp.jpg


http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbt...t=0&Board=Knives&Number=276350&page=0&fpart=1 More pictures posted on page 2
 
15 degree per side is normal angle for most knives at least most manufacturers do this angle - I did enough research for this, measuring angles across good number of manufacturers. I do not know about most people, I just do not have statistic. I am pretty sure nobody have this statictic really. May be it is based on the fact that there is nor reports saying that people has angle 15 dergee per side? On this basis I may doe similar claims as well, but I will not.

If knife can not handle this angle - it is not for me for sure.

2 Vivi.

I did not tested SR77 yet. But SR101 was one of the best steel - no question about it. And pricing is just right. It is in the same league as RD6 in this terms. I really like my SR collection. I can feel steel like "singing" when I sharpen it, because of high hardness. I am bit sceptical about shaving clean after chopping - I need to try this to verify. Better, if you post video.

On use I will not argue with you because I am not in the forest for long time. I will really welcome you input and thoughts on big knives use.

Why do you prefer this knife walking around camp if you can carry lighter hatchet which will do job better? I had simple harnes to attach it to my belt and without jungle like bushes it covered all my needs.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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