In fairness, I only have a few brands of knives. The Buck stockman I had definately had edges greater than 15 degrees. Spyderco was about 15, and some of my Benchmades have been, but not all. The Kershaw Vapor and the Gerber folder of unknown origin were above 15. The Vapor required using the Sharpmaker at 30 degrees per side to get a microbevel. An American made Schrade Stockman I got in trade was greater than 15 before I rebeveled it. My Byrd Cara Cara was also above 15 but not by much. That's only 5 or 6 brands out of all the ones out there, and no customs, but my experience has been that only a handful of the knives I have came anywhere close to 15/side from the factory. And yes, if it wont handle 15/side for normal EDC work, I consider it pretty low performance. I think most people sharpen at whatever angle they can hold, and dont worry too much about the specific angle, so asking a large number of nonknife people what angle they sharpen at will get a lot of strange looks.
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Some chopping experience.
- Thread starter nozh2002
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nozh2002
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Well I at some point had to came up with some angle measurement technic to see this. Buck is defenetely 15 degree or less per side - it is their edge 2000. So can you provide some info on how did you measure edge angle on your knives?
I saw you claim on Kershaw Outcast being better then Dozier based on the fact that you did not see reoports on microbends on Outcast (as well as there are no any reports on Outcast not having microbends, I should add), so I need to check how did you came to this conclusion about Buck.
Here is mine out of the Box Buck110:
30 degree. So where your "defenetely" came from? And of course I checked new out of the box knives with known origin.
Non knife folks do no care about knives, cutting performance and steels. They happy with cheap Chinese serreted knives which cuts somehow and I guess this should be out of this discussion. From regular folks having knives for over $30 is sign of stupidity, so I do not think we even should bring here wast majority of world population - this is blade forum and we are talking about knives with interest and knowledge.
Thanks, Vassili.
I'm looking forward to trying SR101 at some point. The DF has left me very impressed with the steel performance, it seems perfectly suited for hard use tasks like chopping hardwood. I plan to make a video at some point, maybe I could slice some paper, then chop through a tree, and slice the paper again and shave my arm, that sort of thing.
Yesterday my friend took his Fiskars hatchet out and we compared it side by side to the Dogfather. For chopping logs, my reprofiled Dogfather was about the same as the hatchet it terms of efficiency. The hatchet had more suitable balance for the job but the Dogfather had a thinner edge that penetrated better and much better edge retention. For limbing trees to make poles for our shelter the Dogfather worked better, as well as for pointing the ends of sticks. Both made suitable hammers, using the spine of each to pound wooden poles into the ground. With the hatchet reprofiled the results would be different of course.
nozh2002
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This observation bit contradict "common accepted" knowledge about edges for chopping, where edge need to be thicker. This is what I also surprise me when I searched for edge angles on the web and found quite a few recommendation on axe sharpening where it was stated that angle should be 30 degree (15 per side). Seems like thick edge only good for hiding poor steel performance, but not for chopping.
Thanks, Vassili.
I tried the Buck Stockman on the Sharpmaker at 15 degrees per side and the stones hit the shoulders of the edges, not the bevels. I checked the Sharpmaker with a protractor, and its within 1/2 degree of 15 and 20 degrees in their respective slots.
The absence of information about the D2 Outcast certainly doesnt mean that damage wont happen. It could happen quite a bit, but people accept it as normal for a big chopper, so dont say anything. I suppose I did say the Outcast was more damage resistant than the Dozier for chopping, though my intended meaning was that I am surprised any D2 or 5160 took dents from cutting wood. Its easy enough to check. Anyone got a D2 Outcast at a 15 degree per side flat bevel they can take a few swings at some branches and see if it dents the edge?
After trying the Vapor at the 20 degree slots and just hitting the edge shoulders, I put the stones in the 15 degree slots and put the blade parallel against the opposite stone before making the strokes. Total edge angle was probably between 56 and 60 degrees inclusive. The next time I sharpened it, I used my belt sander and took it down to something less than 20 degrees per side, so I could use those slots for a microbevel.
The absence of information about the D2 Outcast certainly doesnt mean that damage wont happen. It could happen quite a bit, but people accept it as normal for a big chopper, so dont say anything. I suppose I did say the Outcast was more damage resistant than the Dozier for chopping, though my intended meaning was that I am surprised any D2 or 5160 took dents from cutting wood. Its easy enough to check. Anyone got a D2 Outcast at a 15 degree per side flat bevel they can take a few swings at some branches and see if it dents the edge?
After trying the Vapor at the 20 degree slots and just hitting the edge shoulders, I put the stones in the 15 degree slots and put the blade parallel against the opposite stone before making the strokes. Total edge angle was probably between 56 and 60 degrees inclusive. The next time I sharpened it, I used my belt sander and took it down to something less than 20 degrees per side, so I could use those slots for a microbevel.
A lot of commonly accepted sharpening knowledge is baseless. Regarding my choppers (Dogfather, Kuhkuri, Axes, hatchets, machetes etc.) I've seen chopping efficiency as much as double simply by giving it a thinner edge. Cliff Stamp has a whole body of good comparison work on the subject still posted on his site.
I really can't think of any knife or wood chopping / cutting tool that I'd want a thicker than 30 degree inclusive edge on. My pocket knives get thin convex edges between 8 and 12 degrees per side (Varies due to the convex) and my choppers are closer to how you run your edges (15 degrees per side), or slightly thinner. My edges are either convexed or given a microbevel, so at the last ~.1mm of edge they're 15 degrees per side or so. The only times I've experienced unintentional edge damage were when I took some folders too thin and hadn't yet applied a microbevel. I got microchips whittling hardwood and prying pieces off as I cut the wood, but the damage stopped after applying a microbevel. These thin edges held up great for EDC use. I've traded and sold a lot of my very thin regrinds off, like the Centofante 3 I took flat to the stone, and so far I've only heard good things from people about them.
The difference a thinner edge makes on a pocket knife is very noticeable. When you thin out a chopper however, it's even easier to see and feel the difference. When the same knife, using the same chop, is sinking twice as deep into wood, you have a serious increase in efficiency and decrease in fatigue rates, that it amazes me more people don't reprofile their big knives. A lot of factory edges I've used on choppers would bounce off the wood as much as they'd cut it...
Hey Vassili, you should check out the Scrapyard Dogfather.
I put what I think is a slightly thinner than 15 degrees per side edge on mine and I can chop down a tree with it and still be able to cleanly shave arm hair. The steel is well suited for what this knife is going to be used for. Honestly I don't have a single cutting tool I use that I feel 15 degrees per side would be too thin, whether it's a 2 inch EDC pocket knife or my full sized Fiskars Axe.
I didn't get the big knife thing for a while, but after using one for a while I can see their merit. An axe will still outchop my Dogfather, and a machete will clear trail better, and a small fixed better will carve wood better, but this tool will do an acceptable job at all tasks. I can hack away thorns and brush from my camp site, chop through 6 inch diameter logs that have fallen across trails, use it as a draw knife for smoothing out bows, spears etc., carve wood using the choil to choke up etc. It's a very good tool for certain jobs, even better than an axe for stuff like limbing trees or thick branches, and it will cut up large melons with more finesse than a hatchet would. Of course this won't suit everyone, some would still rather carry an axe and a small knife, and that's fine. But for me I've found the big knife thing works well, and I have a lot of fun on the side.
Either way you might be interested to take a look at what I've done with my big knife. Slices fine too since putting a thin edge on it.
http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbt...t=0&Board=Knives&Number=276350&page=0&fpart=1 More pictures posted on page 2
where did you get this? how much? Im wanting a fully functional big knife to use in real applications the weak brands cant keep up with.
nozh2002
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A lot of commonly accepted sharpening knowledge is baseless. Regarding my choppers (Dogfather, Kuhkuri, Axes, hatchets, machetes etc.) I've seen chopping efficiency as much as double simply by giving it a thinner edge. Cliff Stamp has a whole body of good comparison work on the subject still posted on his site.
I really can't think of any knife or wood chopping / cutting tool that I'd want a thicker than 30 degree inclusive edge on. My pocket knives get thin convex edges between 8 and 12 degrees per side (Varies due to the convex) and my choppers are closer to how you run your edges (15 degrees per side), or slightly thinner. My edges are either convexed or given a microbevel, so at the last ~.1mm of edge they're 15 degrees per side or so. The only times I've experienced unintentional edge damage were when I took some folders too thin and hadn't yet applied a microbevel. I got microchips whittling hardwood and prying pieces off as I cut the wood, but the damage stopped after applying a microbevel. These thin edges held up great for EDC use. I've traded and sold a lot of my very thin regrinds off, like the Centofante 3 I took flat to the stone, and so far I've only heard good things from people about them.
The difference a thinner edge makes on a pocket knife is very noticeable. When you thin out a chopper however, it's even easier to see and feel the difference. When the same knife, using the same chop, is sinking twice as deep into wood, you have a serious increase in efficiency and decrease in fatigue rates, that it amazes me more people don't reprofile their big knives. A lot of factory edges I've used on choppers would bounce off the wood as much as they'd cut it...
This is important information to report, as any when real life experience show opposite results to what expected by commonly accepted knowledge.
What do you say about edge holding - how noticeble differentce between thick and thin edges?
Thanks, Vassili.