Some manufacturers of precision digital multimeters, power tools, etc. think the 6ft drop test is a legit test, and they don't try to discredit the tester if their product fails. Now if a precision piece of electronics can be expected to pass the drop test if it is not going to be used in laboratory conditions, I think the test could be considered relevent for a piece of equipment that is intended for hard outdoor use.
Some Comments on the Busse Battle Mistress
- Thread starter Burke
- Start date
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Normark:
If you use an example to show performance and don't guarantee the results
performed by someone else to be as you describe - this not supporting your
statements. To be clear, supporting your statements would mean allowing your
customer base to duplicate the testing under the *guarantee* that the
results that they see would be the same as what you have described. In fact it seems to me that
you have gone beyond this and have openly stated that intentional artifical
testing is not covered under the warrenty.
Now as for the quality of your products, I have never handled any so I don't have much to say on that except I would assume based on conversations I have had with several people that you do quality kydex work as I would trust them to give straightforward information. My statements about Kydex were simply that, a perspective on the material not on any one person or persons using it.
As for the legions of customers who like your work, as stated above, I have no doubt that they exist. Then again you can find this for any knife related products. You can find lots of people who swear by 420-J2 blades for $5. What I am interested in is the following :
a) Will a maker clearly state the abilites of their products. Clearly does not mean using terms like "maybe", "probably" etc., as they don't exactly inspire confidence. How about if someone ordered a sheath from you and stated that they "might send you a payment".
b) Will the maker clearly support the abilities they describe. This means in no uncertain terms are willing to let the customer duplicate any and all testing *and* will guarantee that the results are at least as good as those claimed.
However, again, these criteria are by no means universal. In fact if a poll was done I don't even think they would be held in the majority, which would be interesting thing to look at.
I should clarify that the guarantee in the last part does not mean that the maker gives a replacement/refund. If someone says "I can flex this to XXX degrees" before it breaks and you do it and find out it is true then obviously you don't get a replacement. It performed as expected. *However* if it breaks significantly before that, well that is a different matter.
I was waiting for this to come up. This is a lie / misrepresentation on so many levels.
First of all is very rare for me to ask people for knives to review and in any case simply asking once hardly qualifies as begging. Secondly I don't keep any of them so they are hardly "mine". Note as well I
turn down offers to review blades on a regular basis because I expect the
makers to react as you are doing to critisms of their product and I have no
desire to work with someone like that. As well since there can be
substantial costs involved (duty + postage), and I only have so much time on
my hands, I am fairly picky about what I work with.
Finally I would much rather buy something than be given it as when someone gives you something there is always a directive to give them a positive review. Now I would like to think that this isn't a controlling influence, and I don't think it is, but when I buy something I am completely free so there is no hassle.
Usually when I ask someone it is because I have been prompted to by someone
else and it is in a product that I don't have any desire to buy.
Interestingly enough, the last time I did ask was well over a year ago when I was reviewing a Project
from Chris Reeves and I mentioned several minor problems I had with the standard sheath. This generated several emails with people about the benefits and
disadvantages of Kydex vs Leather.
I commented that while I would be interested some real data instead of just
theory I would not be paying ~$65 for a Kydex sheath for a knife I would be
returning. It was suggested that I ask you, which I did and you said
something like - I don't have any in stock at the moment. Which was where it
ended.
Now maybe you think that this somehow would make me biased against you. And
it is in fact a reasonable argument, certainly far more sound that the
majority of what was said in the above. My only comment on that is that, no,
my personal opinion of a maker is completely seperate from my opinion of
their work. Can you believe that? Well that is up to you. If you want some
evidence then look at my posts on the forums and you will find critisms of
products from people that I like and praise of people that I don't.
You could also talk to say Marion Poff and Jerry Busse as I have discussed
knives with both people on the phone and to be specific ask them what I had
said about McClung's products. I do have a problem personally with McClung
for obvious reasons yet both will tell you that I have stated that McClung's
Kydex work is second to none that I have seen, his handles very comfortable
and the designs of his knives have several very strong features (full
grinds, dropped handle etc.).
Now you could just further extend the biased argument and say that these two people will give biased statements in my
regard etc., which is one of the problems with judging a persons character.
You really have to know them to be sure and even then it is not trivial. But finally, it is reasonable to assume that I would be so baised against you that I would make unfounded critisms of Kydex in general which includes the work of several people I respect (like Busse not to mention many custom makers).
As for any back and forth we have had, I don't remember anying on
rec.knives, I did a search on dejanews and it didn't turn up anything. The
last time we discussed sheaths I think was here :
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001162.html
When in fact I describe the exact same kind of thing I did here and your reaction to the method used and its validity and such
was very different. Pretty much the opposite in fact.
To simplify, it I fell on the same driveway and the sheath was the impaction
point, then yes it obviously would see far more stress than if it was
dropped. And yes I could easily recieve an impact more stressful than what the sheath would recieve by dropping it without taking bodily harm.
Interesting that you are arguing against the drop test and making all kinds
of comments about falling as traditionally this has always been used to show
the strength of kydex because of its superior cut and puncture resistance to
leather.
However when the exact same situation is brought up but now it shows how
Kydex is inferior you complain about the method. Once again letting the
results bais your judgements of the method. Ironically this is in the same
thread that you keep using the "unscientific" line. One of the principle
natures of scientific work is that the method must be evaluated
*independently* of the results.
You cannot use the same method and judge it sound and then unsound dependent
on the results, or by the same token, judge a person capable or not
depending on the results produced. You have to be willing to make a judgement on the method (or individual) independent of the results. Of course highly unexpected
results can prompt an investigation into the method *but* they cannot under
no circumstances alone be used to judge its merits. If this was the case it is obvious that no theory could even be contradicted, which is hardly the case.
Back to Kydex, I finally got around last week to wrapping up the Basic for a return to Busse Combat as the review is long since over and was interested in how much functional damage was done to the sheath by the cracks so I did some work on it to see what was the loss in durability/strength. What I found was very surprising, to me anyway.
First of all the tolerance for the Kydex for distortion was very low, it
only took a few bends to induce a stress crack right long the base of the
belt loop and then it fractured cleanly. Now it should be noted that I have bent this sheath in this fashion before by drawing the knife forcefully and I am sure others have done so as well. As well there could have been stress cracks due to the low temp use. However leather or Cordura would obviously not as fatigued nearly as quickly.
Even more surprising was the fact that I could readily tear the sheath apart after the cracks had opened a tear. Well tear is a bad description, it was easily pulled apart as the focus of the stress was directed to the crack region. I tried to tear a few bits of thick leather in the same fashion without success but would probably be able to do so if I had started a cut, which I should do to be complete later on.
What does this mean, well if I got hung up the sheath would much more readily come apart than if it was made of Cordura or leather. But it would need a significant hangup, your body weight would do it though.
On the positive, I was interested in if I could pop the sheath apart but was unable. I used the blade to pry in between the fasteners but they could not be removed. You actually have to distort the kydex around them which is very difficult unless as pointed out in the above it is cracked.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-14-2001).]
If you use an example to show performance and don't guarantee the results
performed by someone else to be as you describe - this not supporting your
statements. To be clear, supporting your statements would mean allowing your
customer base to duplicate the testing under the *guarantee* that the
results that they see would be the same as what you have described. In fact it seems to me that
you have gone beyond this and have openly stated that intentional artifical
testing is not covered under the warrenty.
Now as for the quality of your products, I have never handled any so I don't have much to say on that except I would assume based on conversations I have had with several people that you do quality kydex work as I would trust them to give straightforward information. My statements about Kydex were simply that, a perspective on the material not on any one person or persons using it.
As for the legions of customers who like your work, as stated above, I have no doubt that they exist. Then again you can find this for any knife related products. You can find lots of people who swear by 420-J2 blades for $5. What I am interested in is the following :
a) Will a maker clearly state the abilites of their products. Clearly does not mean using terms like "maybe", "probably" etc., as they don't exactly inspire confidence. How about if someone ordered a sheath from you and stated that they "might send you a payment".
b) Will the maker clearly support the abilities they describe. This means in no uncertain terms are willing to let the customer duplicate any and all testing *and* will guarantee that the results are at least as good as those claimed.
However, again, these criteria are by no means universal. In fact if a poll was done I don't even think they would be held in the majority, which would be interesting thing to look at.
I should clarify that the guarantee in the last part does not mean that the maker gives a replacement/refund. If someone says "I can flex this to XXX degrees" before it breaks and you do it and find out it is true then obviously you don't get a replacement. It performed as expected. *However* if it breaks significantly before that, well that is a different matter.
I was waiting for this to come up. This is a lie / misrepresentation on so many levels.
First of all is very rare for me to ask people for knives to review and in any case simply asking once hardly qualifies as begging. Secondly I don't keep any of them so they are hardly "mine". Note as well I
turn down offers to review blades on a regular basis because I expect the
makers to react as you are doing to critisms of their product and I have no
desire to work with someone like that. As well since there can be
substantial costs involved (duty + postage), and I only have so much time on
my hands, I am fairly picky about what I work with.
Finally I would much rather buy something than be given it as when someone gives you something there is always a directive to give them a positive review. Now I would like to think that this isn't a controlling influence, and I don't think it is, but when I buy something I am completely free so there is no hassle.
Usually when I ask someone it is because I have been prompted to by someone
else and it is in a product that I don't have any desire to buy.
Interestingly enough, the last time I did ask was well over a year ago when I was reviewing a Project
from Chris Reeves and I mentioned several minor problems I had with the standard sheath. This generated several emails with people about the benefits and
disadvantages of Kydex vs Leather.
I commented that while I would be interested some real data instead of just
theory I would not be paying ~$65 for a Kydex sheath for a knife I would be
returning. It was suggested that I ask you, which I did and you said
something like - I don't have any in stock at the moment. Which was where it
ended.
Now maybe you think that this somehow would make me biased against you. And
it is in fact a reasonable argument, certainly far more sound that the
majority of what was said in the above. My only comment on that is that, no,
my personal opinion of a maker is completely seperate from my opinion of
their work. Can you believe that? Well that is up to you. If you want some
evidence then look at my posts on the forums and you will find critisms of
products from people that I like and praise of people that I don't.
You could also talk to say Marion Poff and Jerry Busse as I have discussed
knives with both people on the phone and to be specific ask them what I had
said about McClung's products. I do have a problem personally with McClung
for obvious reasons yet both will tell you that I have stated that McClung's
Kydex work is second to none that I have seen, his handles very comfortable
and the designs of his knives have several very strong features (full
grinds, dropped handle etc.).
Now you could just further extend the biased argument and say that these two people will give biased statements in my
regard etc., which is one of the problems with judging a persons character.
You really have to know them to be sure and even then it is not trivial. But finally, it is reasonable to assume that I would be so baised against you that I would make unfounded critisms of Kydex in general which includes the work of several people I respect (like Busse not to mention many custom makers).
As for any back and forth we have had, I don't remember anying on
rec.knives, I did a search on dejanews and it didn't turn up anything. The
last time we discussed sheaths I think was here :
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001162.html
When in fact I describe the exact same kind of thing I did here and your reaction to the method used and its validity and such
was very different. Pretty much the opposite in fact.
To simplify, it I fell on the same driveway and the sheath was the impaction
point, then yes it obviously would see far more stress than if it was
dropped. And yes I could easily recieve an impact more stressful than what the sheath would recieve by dropping it without taking bodily harm.
Interesting that you are arguing against the drop test and making all kinds
of comments about falling as traditionally this has always been used to show
the strength of kydex because of its superior cut and puncture resistance to
leather.
However when the exact same situation is brought up but now it shows how
Kydex is inferior you complain about the method. Once again letting the
results bais your judgements of the method. Ironically this is in the same
thread that you keep using the "unscientific" line. One of the principle
natures of scientific work is that the method must be evaluated
*independently* of the results.
You cannot use the same method and judge it sound and then unsound dependent
on the results, or by the same token, judge a person capable or not
depending on the results produced. You have to be willing to make a judgement on the method (or individual) independent of the results. Of course highly unexpected
results can prompt an investigation into the method *but* they cannot under
no circumstances alone be used to judge its merits. If this was the case it is obvious that no theory could even be contradicted, which is hardly the case.
Back to Kydex, I finally got around last week to wrapping up the Basic for a return to Busse Combat as the review is long since over and was interested in how much functional damage was done to the sheath by the cracks so I did some work on it to see what was the loss in durability/strength. What I found was very surprising, to me anyway.
First of all the tolerance for the Kydex for distortion was very low, it
only took a few bends to induce a stress crack right long the base of the
belt loop and then it fractured cleanly. Now it should be noted that I have bent this sheath in this fashion before by drawing the knife forcefully and I am sure others have done so as well. As well there could have been stress cracks due to the low temp use. However leather or Cordura would obviously not as fatigued nearly as quickly.
Even more surprising was the fact that I could readily tear the sheath apart after the cracks had opened a tear. Well tear is a bad description, it was easily pulled apart as the focus of the stress was directed to the crack region. I tried to tear a few bits of thick leather in the same fashion without success but would probably be able to do so if I had started a cut, which I should do to be complete later on.
What does this mean, well if I got hung up the sheath would much more readily come apart than if it was made of Cordura or leather. But it would need a significant hangup, your body weight would do it though.
On the positive, I was interested in if I could pop the sheath apart but was unable. I used the blade to pry in between the fasteners but they could not be removed. You actually have to distort the kydex around them which is very difficult unless as pointed out in the above it is cracked.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-14-2001).]
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2000
- Messages
- 3,021
Try http://www.hillknives.com (you added an extra comma). They look interesting.