Some due explanations - reloaded: broken in posts that don't timeout on server side

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Moonw

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Nov 19, 2014
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This thread is meant to be a follow-up to: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...War-II-M-43-Gelbu-Special-and-Tora-Blades-M-2 . I decided to write it in the Cantina. Wall of text incoming, you've been warned.

First of all, I will hold myself up to higher standards than those I've demonstrated in the previous one. If anything is unclear - ask. As most of you know, English is not my first, nor my second language.

Jack Corbett, please accept my apologies for being abrasive in the first place, and for derailing your thread. This was uncalled for (to say the least).

GB, looking back, I can't blame you for taking this personally. I did not communicate my intentions clearly. When I tried to insert a disclaimer, it was taken the wrong way. I tought that was what sent you over board, I'd still have that impression, re-reading, but as you stated that it was me treating you as if you don't know steel, I'll accept that. I don't know you personally, so assuming something like that about a stranger would be assinine.
 
The point I wanted to make is that while "the other guys" sent you a flawed blade, I had the same experience in a replacement from HI. Call me fed up with nothing but praises, when my experience was the oposite (at least from a POV - another disclaimer, more on this below). (Bigbore, "I am holding in my hand" implied that there was indeed no way for you to have received any used blade that was mine in the past, as a DOD. I also did read the thread about the statue - I even replied in it.)

Anyone can rest assured that I won't sling any names, insults, make assumptions about the mental state of anyone over the Internet etc. I have learned awhile ago that doing any of these does not lead to anything good, and that, especially when I have no prior information about the way things took place in time, it will make me look bad.

Starting from comparing my situation with one involving a product from "the other guys", I did get carried away. Shouldn't have.

Steve Tall, thank you for not assuming (thank you as well, Cul). You are right, I did hold back until now. I won't check exact dates, but I could have written a bad review like 3 weeks ago, if I really wanted to be an axhole. (Actually, would that really made me one? I've never seen censorship here, nor the request that only eulogies be brought forth for HI). Right after Karda no longer was a moderator, or even in the Cantina, I could've said things that I didn't, had my "sleeper troll" plan been a "genius" one. I could've jumped in the thread when the gentleman from Canada received an unmarked WWII instead of an AK and told about my experience. Yet, I did not do any of these, SingleGrind. In fact, I told that person that I would bet the house HI will try to make things right.
 
Do I still believe HI would try to do things right for me as well? Yes. Do I want it, after two lemons in a row? Unlikely.

A little backgroud, before dwelling in the details - I live somewhere, where:

a. law does not allow me as a person to receive anything thru email that could be assimilated to a weapon; since the law does not specify explicitly what a "weapon" is, it is up to the guy scanning your package to decide. I consulted someone from the Police what I'd need to do to be able to bring in a freakin' machette (not antiques...these have a different regime), and when he started explaining that I would need to involve the Ministry of Defense to get an exempt...I said "forget it". People have reported being able to send blades outside and receive stuff, others had them confiscated; I did not want to risk that.

b. OTOH, I can personally bring with me a knife in the country. Companies may import them. I can sent them thru mail within the borders. Net result - the only times I can get a knife from HI or whatever, is when I or one of my colleagues comes for a few months from US here. This is why everything I bought was shipped to Chicago. If getting a quality knife means waiting 2-3 months, I am game for that.
 
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Back in January & February I was in US and I wanted to add a 2nd knife to my "collection", so I religiously followed the DODs. So, as a present for my birthday, I snagged the "holy grail" of kukris (for me at that time), one of the two Samshers by Thamar. An awesome blade to look at.

In the middle of Chicago, dead of the winter, I did not have any hard woods to properly test the knife. However, some short tests made on soft wood household objects showed that the metal on the edge was very burned. I send Karda an email saying that (paraprasing) I am very surprised how the lightest touch to the wood would dent the edge (push it inside). He suggested a sharpening, and, either if I am not happy afterwards, either right away, I could contact Yangdu for replacement. So there I was with a knife I was drooling for for years (a MK2 replica)...I had to try something. I got myself some Rhinowet, ground away some metal and I told Karda that my repeated light tests showed an improved edge. So I took the knife with me back to Europe.

Subsequent real tests still showed that the knife was not on par with my M43 (a decent knife) on hard woods (mmundy4579, I am not looking at a pure weapon, there are many, more efficient ways that don't require a knife to take care of dirty business, but as a mall ninja I wouldn't know anything about those). The metal acted very differently under a file over the sweet spot, too.

I was ashamed to say anything, because I knew I had no way to return the knife back. I told myself that I will let Yangdu know in 2016 - when and if I go back to the States. However, I did not take this decision until I checked with two knife makers whether they could re-heat treat the knife (nay).
 
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Mtngunr, sorry he is no longer here, was the only one that I told about this issue. He encouraged me to tell Yangdu about it. At this time, I tought that maybe, as he was saying, this wouldn't be disrespectul, so I wrote her an email describing the situation (October the 2nd), apologetic, and asking whether she thinks there is a way to solve this that would not make her feel taken advantage of. I also said that rules are rules and if she wants to see the piece in her hands before, I totally understand. I had a colleague coming from there that did not have the stereotypical idea that prevails around here, that only lunatics need swords (everyone calls these, and my Thai blades, "swords"; in fact, any weapon carries a stigma - a byproduct of many, many years of Communism propaganda, that several decades later still survives).

She graciously offered me right away the possibility to get a BAS, AK, CAK of my choice. No other question asked. Again, I apologized, and asked her whether she has anything in stock that would resemble the Samsher - curved handle, drop etc. She said DC was in stock.

So, let me recap - she believes in the verity of my complaint, cares about it, offers me a very reasonable deal. She didn't even ask me to pay for shipping, but of course I did, that was the least I could do. This explains why I feel she went beyond what she should have done, christcl. Of course, I wrote happily in the "Why buy HI" thread. Who wouldn't have? Timing is everything, SingleGrind. This was the "flip". "Flop" came afterwards. (I will give you something - I was sleepy alright, when I bid everyone good night, it was 3AM here...well that, apparently, made me look like a little _____ running when cornered, which I tought I would be called had I simply dissapeared from the thread after agitating the spirits. Well, I was wrong, I was called out for it.)

The dissapointment came once I spent some time with the newly-arrived knife. This is when the "flop" came. Bipolar much, me?
 
One thing I wrote Yangdu (Steve Tall, I did get in touch with her) is that I would not have mentioned any of the smaller issues I had with it, had the spine of the knife been straight - it is the warpage that disapointed me. As it stands, I feel that this knife didn't receive the usual scrutiny that others did. I have a hard time believing Yangu held it in her hands, she would've seen at least some of the issues.

I am further dissapointed that this issue happened with a replacement, that was known as about to start a travel that far. FWIW, the Samsher was a perfect blade in my eyes (I understand the variations that handmade things will present inherently so I am not hard to please, please don't lecture me on the obvious...) in any way but the hardness.

Any of the smaller issues would have relegated, per my experience here, a knife to the DOD, and being marked as a blem. Such details are part of what defines the quality of the knife. If we are talking about the quality issues of "others'" that are not here to defend themselves, I feel HI should be reasonably held to the same standard.

Some of you have impressive collections of such blades. You have made up your mind based on your own experiences. The first kukri I bought, I did after much research over boards. It had some little flaws, did I complain once? I repaired myself what was to repair, i.e. the frog that should've been tighter. Once I have the 2nd, 3rd blade in my hand...my opinion about HI can't be based on the experiences of others, or the customer care others receive. This becomes a personal experience.

Just to make sure we are on the same page: I wasn't told before this knife was sent that it had any issues. When you buy a DOD, you know what you get, and you can decide what bothers and what doesn't.

Without much ado, these are the issues that, again, would have still made me happy as a clam with the DC, had the warpage not been an issue:
 
- small dots of black rust: I don't care for them on a working knife; they will happen anyway. I am just mentioning them here because in the past these seemed to generously relegate knives to "blem" status and none of the previous two knives had them. I wouldn't have batted an eye only for these.

- scabbard: taking the knife out of it was hard. I really mean HARD. However, it did help that the knife was generously oiled. Once I took a damp cloth to it...no go. It was so tight that I pushed with maybe 90% of my power and it would go in halfway. I was afraid to go further, because forcing it could have resulted in a visit to the ER :) had the scabbard split... 'nother disclaimer: I know this is a technique used to adjust a too loose of a scabbard. However, the rig should still remain functional. Usually, a small piece of leather is used. I did not expect to see this instead:



; the fit after I got the piece of leather out (the gap is such, you could insert another similar blade there):



Not something I would fuss over, still.

(Actually, I think the blade not being straight contributed to it getting stuck past one point). Still, not a deal-breaker. I think two days ago a DC was sold as a blem for tight scabbard.
 
- three other cosmetic issues - again, NOT deal brakers, I cut wood for Pete's sake, but unexpected:

* I guess some kind of hammer mark (these again made kukris be named "blems"):



* again, not something to cry about, but still something that alone would make this knife a blem under HI's quality policy:



* the buttcap...why did I mention it?



I would like to call this a cosmetic issue (just like another tiny detail that makes me think Thamar was in a rush that day:


)

, but I am not convinced it is only cosmetic 100%.
 
I may be VERY wrong, and VERY off-base about this, this might be only a WILD theory: what if the drilled hole only was crooked, the tang being straight? This would mean that the tang was more or less forced into a crooked hole. If so, that tang will not be at rest even while not under use. There's some unnecessary energy being stored there for the entire life of the knife. Is it probable it may not mean squat? HIGHLY. Is it something I would want in a knife under heavy use, for my own safety? If it makes me even 1% uncomfortable...is this a valid complaint? I think so.

- as you have seen so far, I am a bad taking pictures. Some were taken with a camera, some with my ipad. (Still suck at it, anyway. Not even "high-tech" can save me.) This was the deal-breaker that I didn't even notice from the first hours of handling the knife. Make no mistake, it is a gorgeous blade otherwise.

I found it quite hard to capture the warpage on the blade "on film". At one point, I thought that I won't be able to do it and my credibility (what little left there is with some) goes down the drain. I was considering alternatives: hiring a professional photographer, or search for a Post Office the moment I put foot on American soil and send the blade to Bawanna :) just to have someone trusted by everyone take a look at it and say: "Hey, he's not paranoid.".

So in the end I got these little green stickers. And shot pictures in different light conditions. These would compensate (somewhat...) for the reflection from the spine, and that of the fullers.

The premise is simple: I take as reference the spine of the knife right above the bolster. If I am looking down the spine perpendicularily, and I either won't see any sticker on either side of that segment, or see very little of both at the same time, I have the correct reference.

Side-shot of the "war-painted" blade:

 
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The others, some beautified by my incredible Paint skills (adding markings, such as the actual width of the spine):







I can see inside the two left fullers. The blade shows some "extra drift" for about 2 mm, while ht spine is 6mm wide. Zoomed-in a little:











All pictures are clickable thumbnails.

*

I cannot readily attribute this last issue on behalf of a shipping damage. The blade appears "twisted", the pictures do not really capture the whole story as holding it in hand. Any force able to accomplish that (warp starts a fem centimetres after the bolster, where the spine is thickest) would have popped at least a bubble from the wrap, would've left marks on the sheath. The sheath looks in perfect shape.
 
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Had this happened to someone buying from another kukuri house...I bet many - heck, maybe even I - would've said that he should have known better.

In the end: do I feel that HI went at one point beyond what was required? Yes, I do. Do I still feel let down in the end? Yes, I do.

I contacted Yangdu like 3-4 weeks ago with my complaints about this knife (again, as I was ashamed that this is how I deal with her generosity...I postponed and postponed for days...). Told her that I was dissapointed, still in disbelief, but I no longer trusted what is called "HI quality".

Do I think now that I should've minded my own business instead of saying anything publicly (in the previous thread)? Probably. Did I feel at this point, after being called in many ways, the need to show proof? Yes. And I apologize to Yangdu for whatever was out-of-place in the way I put things in perspective yesterday.

Last thing - I do not want to accomplish anything with this, other than what the title suggests. Yangdu treated me fair when she said she will reimburse the cost of the knife as soon as I send it back, just as I asked, because the last thing I want is to take advantage of anyone, especially her; she mentioned the shipping cost on top of that.

Moonw
 
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So that was it, above is the last post. Glad I was able to finally post this here, and thank Bawanna that tried to help me with posting (he was getting timeouts as well...).

Obviously, there may be some days "off" since this was written on Friday...so time marks such as "yesterday" etc. should not be taken ad literam.
 
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To me, this is the most important part of all these posts:

Moonw said:
...I contacted Yangdu like 3-4 weeks ago with my complaints about this knife... Yangdu treated me fair when she said she will reimburse the cost of the knife as soon as I send it back, just as I asked...
Click to expand...
 
Steve Tall said:
To me, this is the most important part of all these posts:
Click to expand...

Quote Originally Posted by Moonw View Post
...I contacted Yangdu like 3-4 weeks ago with my complaints about this knife... Yangdu treated me fair when she said she will reimburse the cost of the knife as soon as I send it back, just as I asked...

Agreed. I think that perhaps Thamar was "off" that day. It sounds like the production of said knife was around the time of the "earthquake", it is possible that some knives produced during that time wasn't up to HI standards, and may have not been caught during QA. Personally, I would give auntie the opportunity to "make it right", and not let this situation dissuade you from purchasing more blades from HI, as most of their products are perfectly done. Which is proven by others collections, whom are themselves, avid purveyors of steel. If there are other knife manufacturers that also buy HI products, I am sure they can attest to HI's overall product quality.
 
Without trying to discredit you or call you a liar, I will say that I do not see warpage in those pictures of the blade. Could very well be crooked, but I just cant see it.

What I will say, is that none of those other pictures show anything I would consider a flaw. The flyfot that Thamar uses as a marking was not perfect, but every kamis mark varies slightly from blade to blade. I have a few Kumars, and while some have a nice perfect star of david, some are a little off. It's handmade, and he's not gonna scrap a perfectly good blade because the mark is a little off. I'm not sure what you're showing in the other picture, the sword of shiva splitting at the end? Same with the "hammer mark," looks like nothing of note. To me at least.

On the buttcap, also nothing to be concerned about. Those wood handles are put on well before final shaping, and having the keeper peened on a few mm or cm to one side will not affect anything at all. The buttcap isn't going anywhere. On your concern about handle construction, I believe the tang is heated red hot, then used to burn the hole through the wood. This means you can't drill a crooked hole or something like that. When the handle goes all the way to the cho, you put on the buttcap and keeper, then peen that ish on. I don't see much room for crooked drilling or stored energy, but I'm neither a kami nor a physicist.

I absolutely agree with Steve Tall about the most important thing you said, but I will add another important thing. If you are 1% dissatisfied with any product, and that little bit is something that bothers you, absolutely 100% return the item, whether an HI product or anything else. To that point, I will say that I appreciate the time you took to post both this explanation, the pictures, and your original post, because I don't think any of that was necessary. If you were unhappy in any apsect of your purchase, you were justified in both contacting Yangdu and wishing for a return/replacement.

Also without apologizing for any previous statements, I will say that I did not mean to hassle you or come off as a d-bag in any way. I was simply seeking further explaination on statements that, based on my experiences and everything I'd read, were a little out of left field.

Judging by some of the things you listed as flaws, especially the marking and the "off butcap," I would go out on a limb and say that HI is not for you. These blades are handmade works of functional art. There will always be variations from blade to blade, both cosmetic and structural. That's just how it is. It appears to me that you were expecting a cookie-cutter khuk with stamped markings and uniform specs, and were surprised when you received something unique and one-of-a-kind.

I have plenty of production, non-HI knives, most of which are perfect or look perfect. But, some have minor flaws because the production was done by actual, real, living, breathing people. Without going into detail, I will say that my favorite ones are those handground blades, where you can see variance from one side of the blade to the other. On other parts of the forum, I have seeen those exact knives be cursed up and down for the same things I love about them.

I must reiterate that I did not an do not mean any bad blood, but by this point it does seem like perhaps HI is not a good fit for you.
 
Good post. I hope this is taken in a positive light as I believe it was intended and not transform into a negative quagmire.

I've seen it before. Yangdu takes exceptional good care of her customers, that's really the bottom line or moral of the story as it were.

The issues of location and rules and laws only exasperate what otherwise would have been an easy deal, call, get a new one or your money back.

PS- I do appreciate your efforts in posting this, I know it was a challenge.
 
SingleGrind, so I understand you are sticking to your earlier conclusion that I am a troll.


- nothing that the orange line touches (in this crude representation) should be seen, when you are looking "perfectly" perpendicular at the spine. Image is clickable for zooming-in.

I explained why I was mentioning the little issues. Because the original blade was not a blem, so I wasn't expecting to get one with so many little things that STILL wouldn't have mattered, had the knife been straight. In other words, I would've been happy with an average blem, had the warpage not been present.

The HI producst might not be for me. Well, I am not that hard to please. The M43 was...w/ villager fit&finish nonetheless, the Samsher would've been, had it been properly heat treated; my [other manufacturer] bonecutter which is much cruder than anything made by HI does not attack my retina, nor do the Aranyik Eneps which don't have 1/4th of the detailing HI has.
 
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Bawanna said:
Good post. I hope this is taken in a positive light as I believe it was intended and not transform into a negative quagmire.

I've seen it before. Yangdu takes exceptional good care of her customers, that's really the bottom line or moral of the story as it were.

The issues of location and rules and laws only exasperate what otherwise would have been an easy deal, call, get a new one or your money back.

PS- I do appreciate your efforts in posting this, I know it was a challenge.
Click to expand...

As promised, I will behave. You are right.

FWIW, the exchange with SingleGrind ends here, as far as I am concerned.
 
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cul4u01 said:
Quote Originally Posted by Moonw View Post
...I contacted Yangdu like 3-4 weeks ago with my complaints about this knife... Yangdu treated me fair when she said she will reimburse the cost of the knife as soon as I send it back, just as I asked...

Agreed. I think that perhaps Thamar was "off" that day. It sounds like the production of said knife was around the time of the "earthquake", it is possible that some knives produced during that time wasn't up to HI standards, and may have not been caught during QA. Personally, I would give auntie the opportunity to "make it right", and not let this situation dissuade you from purchasing more blades from HI, as most of their products are perfectly done. Which is proven by others collections, whom are themselves, avid purveyors of steel. If there are other knife manufacturers that also buy HI products, I am sure they can attest to HI's overall product quality.
Click to expand...

Thanks. FWIW, the Samsher was made before calamity hit Nepal. I'd think the replacement as well.
 
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