Some Spyderco Mule 52100 prelim work

G

gud4u

Joined
Jan 6, 2004
Messages
551
This is just notes about my experiences in initial edging and testing of my Spyderco 52100 Mule this morning.

You gotta start some place, so I decided to start with my usual 10 degree main bevels with 15 degree micro-bevels, and test for edge durability.

I seem to recall the target hardness was around 61. Judging by re-beveling effort, mine is at least that, perhaps harder. It's hard enough to notice that my DMT Coarse (Blue) stone needs replacement, so I used 400-grit wet/dry paper for installing the main 10 degree bevels. Actually the larger working surface of the Handamerican Scary Sharp system and flexibility of grits is such that I probably will not replace the DMT.

With the main bevels installed, I used the Spyderco Medium ceramic bench stone to polish the main bevels and install the 15 degree micro-bevels. Finished off the bevels by stropping with CrO on leather. Quick testing for sharpness with newsprint. The blade takes a fine edge - whispering through the newsprint.

My usual test for edge durability is:
- Test for initial sharpness.
- Two pointings on a hardwood rake handle with hard slicing pressure.
- Examine edge for damage or reduced sharpness after the test.

With 10/15 bevels, blade steels like S30V, BG-42 and VG-10 pass this test (Tested: Spyderco Manix, BG-42 Military and Ronin).

The 52100 Mule failed, with very noticeable chipping in the most-stressed center of the edge. This was chipping only, not large tear-outs. Absolutely no edge-rolling. Re-beveling was required to remove the chip-sites.

The chipping may simply be due to the 15 degree micro-bevels being too narrow. Too much exposure of the 10 degree bevels (essentially a de-burred 20 degree included angle edge), not enough exposure of the studier final 30 degree included angle edge. I'll re-install the 15 degree final bevels and try again - but as a broader secondary bevel, rather than narrow micro-bevels. A final edge angle of 20 degrees included won't stand slicing hardwoods with any steel I'm aware of.

Some things are evident:
- The quality of the Mule is excellent - suitable for finishing with handle slabs.
- The blade I received is quite hard.
- The hardness may dictate careful attention to final edge included angle (greater included edge angle for more durable edge).
- This Mule is a lot of knife for the money spent.

Thanks to Sal for a great program!
 
Interesting results, I've seen it where you sometimes need to make the microbevel a little less "micro" or add a secondary, especially when taking the primary down below 12 deg/side.

Just curious ... can you give us the thickness just behind the edge?
 
Dog of War said:
Just curious ... can you give us the thickness just behind the edge?
Click to expand...

I haven't cut with mine yet, but it is .019"-.020" thick along the length edge.

These are very interesting findings about the microchipping, I'll have to keep that in mind when I break out the DMT XX Coarse to the Mule. I'll have to start at 10 per side, cut some, and go thinner from there if I can and play with the microbevels.

Mike
 
Just curious ... can you give us the thickness just behind the edge?

I'm not good at measurements that small. The micro-bevels were plainly visible by light reflection, but not a lot more than deburring of the main bevels. It's interesting that the same micro-bevels were sufficient for my S30V, BG-42 and VG-10 blades to pass the same test. This 52100 seems a bit brittle by comparison.

The steel is so hard that honing with the Spyderco medium stone is slow. I'll use 800-grit paper for installing broader secondary edge bevels. I expect 30 degrees included final edge bevels should be fine - just broader for a more durable edge.
 
gud4u said:
This is just notes about my experiences in initial edging and testing of my Spyderco 52100 Mule this morning.

You gotta start some place, so I decided to start with my usual 10 degree main bevels with 15 degree micro-bevels, and test for edge durability.
Some things are evident:
- The quality of the Mule is excellent - suitable for finishing with handle slabs.
- The blade I received is quite hard.
- The hardness may dictate careful attention to final edge included angle (greater included edge angle for more durable edge).
- This Mule is a lot of knife for the money spent.

Thanks to Sal for a great program!
Click to expand...

1. Thanks for the review.

2. That said, I can't understand re-beveling right out of the box...seems we should be testing the whole package, including factory bevel, until it doesn't work anymore....THEN...rebevel.

3. If you get a decent digital micrometer for about $60.00, you won't have to be very good at measurements, just be able to read the display. This item is invaluable for any do-it-yourselfer, and is worth its' weight in gold.

4. With the exception of noting the quality of the knife, and attention to detail, it doesn't seem that you came up with much of value, going by your summation....Did you e-mail or PM Sal for dialogue before going ahead and changing the bevels?

(Obviously, you are free to do whatever you want with the knife that YOU paid for, but the whole automatic assumption that every knife should have the bevels reworked out of the box seems EXTREMELY presumptuous from where I sit)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Posted by Kohai999:

2. That said, I can't understand re-beveling right out of the box...seems we should be testing the whole package, including factory bevel, until it doesn't work anymore....THEN...rebevel.

3. If you get a decent digital micrometer for about $60.00, you won't have to be very good at measurements, just be able to read the display. This item is invaluable for any do-it-yourselfer, and is worth its' weight in gold.

4. With the exception of noting the quality of the knife, and attention to detail, it doesn't seem that you came up with much of value, going by your summation....Did you e-mail or PM Sal for dialogue before going ahead and changing the bevels?

(Obviously, you are free to do whatever you want with the knife that YOU paid for, but the whole automatic assumption that every knife should have the bevels reworked out of the box seems EXTREMELY presumptuous from where I sit)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

You're really quite a superior person, aren't you? You seem to view yourself as some sort of supreme authority? The world according to STeven Garsson?

I need permission neither from a pompous ass such as yourself nor from Mr. Glesser to do as I please with whatever I buy, so long as I don't construct a bomb with it or harm others.

Grow up!
 
For those who may be interested, broader final 15 degree edge bevels passed the rake test nicely, with good retained sharpness and no edge damage at all.
 
Mike, gud4u -- thanks for the info. ~.020" at the shoulder should please a wide range of mule team purchasers.

Good to hear that the edge is acting stable at 15 deg./side; IIRC 52100 can be tricky to quench, but sounds like that's not an issue here. I've also observed there seems to be a critical range around 10-12 deg/side for many steels that has a pronounced effect on how well an added microbeveled edge will hold up.

Looking forward to whatever else you guys find.
 
gud4u said:
I need permission neither from a pompous ass such as yourself nor from Mr. Glesser to do as I please with whatever I buy, so long as I don't construct a bomb with it or harm others.

Grow up!
Click to expand...

Sorry, old man, please don't get your blood pressure up on my account...carry on with messing up your knives, it is none of my business.:foot:

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai the reason for the Mule to be produced and created was for us to mess it up. Anyways it is not like he Cliff Stamped it, he just put his own prefered edge on, witch it seems like he has on all his knives.
 
No offense, and thanks for your testing, but I agree that the test should be performed with the original bevels first.

As the "pompous ass" above noted, it's your knife to do with as you please.
 
There really is no need to test the knife with the original bevels, we're not testing the Spyderco geometry with these knives (we know that's good), we're testing the steels. I would say he had to change the factory bevel for testing purposes because he otherwise would not be able to compare the steel performance to his other knives. Plus, not everyone is going to be inclined to change the factory angle, so it is nice for some people to do it so we can have evaluations of the steel at this heat treat at various edge profiles.
 
hardheart said:
There really is no need to test the knife with the original bevels, we're not testing the Spyderco geometry with these knives (we know that's good....
Click to expand...

There are those that have been here for longer than you or I that hold, in testing, that the factory bevels MUST be tested, as it is part of the total package...and frankly, what if the grinder working on it was asleep at the wheel that day, and did a crappy bevel?

Would have certainly boogered the test reports, but would have also been valid information to know.

What does Thom Brogan say?

Best Regards,

STeven "pompous ass" Garsson
 
It's possible, but testing the mule as a package probably isn't going to do a lot for many people. Each steel version is limited production, and hopefully QC falls within other Spyderco models. The bevels on the 52100 mule should be about as good as any other Spyderco knife, but it won't do the average knife buyer much good to have that knowledge once the 600 examples have sold out. Sal is doing this to satisfy the steel snob/sharpening nut aspect some of us have, and that facet of knife knuttery tends to want to grind on our shiny blades to see how low we can go before things start falling apart.

I look forward to reports of different edge profiles, with or without microbevels, convex edges, darksider zero grinds, and various levels of polish. I'm gonna start on mine once I get some scales installed, the paracord wrap wasn't working for me.

In Sal's first thread mentioning the possibility of this project, I posited that 52100 would be a good candidate because the upcoming bushcraft is going to use it. I kinda figured it would give everyone an idea of what to expect in a Spyderco treatment of this steel. But, Sal has already stated the 52100 bushie will be a traditional scandi grind (I believe the S90V will be a flat grind). So, even the next knife Golden puts out in this steel is going to have a different edge geometry.

I'm also a little biased in the fact that in that thread, I suggested Spyderco ship these test mules without sharpened edges to save a little on labor. Not the most popular idea, but a few grinding goofs agreed with me :D
 
Kohai999 said:
There are those that have been here for longer than you or I that hold, in testing, that the factory bevels MUST be tested, as it is part of the total package...
Click to expand...

There hasn't been a mule project before, so what people that have been here longer than you or me or anyone else seems extremely irrelevant, don't you think?

This is not a regular knife on which you test initial sharpness or other factory values. This is a mule, it was made to specifically test steel under identical geometries. It is irrelevant whether the geometries are those of the factory or what ever the user chose. And why on earth should anyone ask Sal for permission? The idea of the mule was discussed in length before the project went ahead. It was never a question that people would play around with the geometry on these mules. It seems that you are missing the whole underlying idea of the mule project. Finally, I can't help but observe that you seem to be consistently opposed against any testing of knives, why?

As about your claim that nothing has been gained from gud4u's test - now that is hardly true. In fact, it already begins to put Landes' and Cliff's claims into question that low carbide volume steels like 52100 have a higher edge stability than high carbide volume steels like S30V even if the low carbide volume steels are run harder[/B]. I think this is of great relevance indeed.
 
I wonder if it's a similar issue. I kinda figure edge stability to be on a microscopic level, really just a lack of carbide tearout due to the steel having very small carbides. In this instance it might just be a matter of toughness. I think it's set at 2 or 3 points harder than the target Spyderco has for VG-10 and S30V. (says 62 on the mule page)

I read something on the boards about them marquenching 52100, which should bump up toughness a smidge, I think, as a result of auto-tempering. That may have been in relation to the Schempp chopper/competition design (not the Rock Salt, that's H1)

Though I really do not have the knowledge to say anything definitively, I'm just trying to gather bits & pieces as I go along.
 
HoB said:
begins to put Landes' and Cliff's claims into question that low carbide volume steels like 52100 have a higher edge stability than high carbide volume steels like S30V
Click to expand...

I agree, and must add that we still don't know what "edge stability" is, how exactly it is measured, what geometry and finish it is measured at (if I recall from memory the only spec I could find was that it was a razor thin edge at 1 micron edge width), and how accepted and measurable materials properties really influence it (or how varying finish or geometry would affect the results).

I do recall it was measured with a lateral only force at the edge, and there were professors and experts who did not even agree that the mode of failure from lateral force was the major player in the dulling equation. In my mind those claims were already put into question from this alone.
 
Poor edge stability isn't the only cause of chipping. At that angle of bevel and degree of chipping it's probably because of poor toughness. It's hard to say without actually seeing the knife of course.
 
The Mules are, to my knowledge a new concept in production pieces. We made them for you to play with. We had no thoughts on saying how you should play with them. We're not likely to approach Wal-Mart with the product. We would be interested in any experiences shared.

It's an experiment.

If some foundries ultimately get more business because it is found that their product has desirable qualities, great, we all benefit.

sal

---------------------------------------------------------

We are all teachers and we are all students.
 
How the hell do you do all the bevels,micro bevels and rebevels and get them exact? I am sure you use a fixture of some sort but what is it? Why not just go with one bevel top of cantle to bottom? Do you want to get thin razor like edge or a "normal" bevel say 20 or 25 deg like on a Lansky. I am a big beliver in a sharp knife and like to use a coarse and then med. grit stone on my Lansky with final stropping on newsprint or jeans or leather. Still have the micro serrations but the edges just seem to go one cutting for a very very long time. keepem sharp
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top