Some Spyderco Mule 52100 prelim work

Longbow, I personally prop up my stones to the desired angle from horizontal on my counter, hold the blade parallel to the counter, and sharpen. With my slop the angles aren't exact, but close. Microbevels save so much time in sharpening I find it hard to think of sharpening without them (unless it is my Takeda Gyuto). You can restore a blade to full sharpness in very little time, as you only hone a tiny portion of steel instead of the whole bevel. It also takes several sharpenings before you start to notice a decrease in cutting ability, at that point I just resharpen at my backbevel angle. a "normal" bevel of 20 or 25 per side to me has proven to be terrible for cutting performance and way thicker than required for a quality steel to be able to resist chipping and rolling. Maybe if you are cutting metals that angle would be required, but not for my EDC cutting.

Sal, I think your explanation nails what a lot of us (including many in this thread) thought the whole Mule Team concept was about. People using the knives for many different tasks at many different geometries. I'm sure the feedback will show the strengths and weaknesses of the steels used. I plan on doing some extensive playing with mine, some of it may be really rough play. I don't want to break it and don't plan on breaking it, but I do plan on thoroughly testing it out at all types of cutting. Luckily, at the price they are, we can afford to play with them hard without too much regret if we actually do break one.

Mike
 
HoB said:
There hasn't been a mule project before, so what people that have been here longer than you or me or anyone else seems extremely irrelevant, don't you think?

...... It seems that you are missing the whole underlying idea of the mule project. Finally, I can't help but observe that you seem to be consistently opposed against any testing of knives, why?

As about your claim that nothing has been gained from gud4u's test - now that is hardly true. In fact, it already begins to put Landes' and Cliff's claims into question that low carbide volume steels like 52100 have a higher edge stability than high carbide volume steels like S30V even if the low carbide volume steels are run harder[/B]. I think this is of great relevance indeed.
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1. People that have been putting out good, solid information for longer than you or I seems pretty relevant...but maybe not to you.

2. I like testing....support it, and believe in it...actively dislike the "tests" to destruction though...there is so much wanton destruction these days, it seems a crime to buy a knife that took many people and resources to create...and destroy it...in some cases, just because the "tester" has nothing better to do with their time...but that does NOT apply to the mules which were created to be used hard, and used up..and I GOT the concept of the mule..and people will hopefully supply feedback...which I gave gud4u props for.

3. I understand what you are saying with about carbide volume theories ..but that was not included in his succinct wrap up of the testing.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I use a Lansky as stated and sharpen along the original bevel as near as possible. My knives get plenty sharp and stay that way it seems for a very long time. For instance I use a CS Master Hunter in Carbon V for a hunting knife. Knife is sharpened at 25 deg. per side. I have done at once 2 full deer from gutting, skinning and cutting the leg joints, around the hips and front shoulders, diaphragm, etc. etc. without resharpening nor touching up. Still sharp afterwards that it would still cut pretty darn good. I didn't debone the meat but did the meat and potatoes so to speak of the deer to get it to that point.

I tried a micro bevel before and didn't see any significant increase in performance although at the time I didn't think it was a micro bevel. Went from 25 up to 30 deg till the edge shined. Seemed to me to cut the same as what I normally do save for the lack of a bite to the edge. What does the Mule look like? Any pics, are they being sold? Thanks and keepem sharp
 
http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=283

shows out of stock, but it did that before. They might still be limiting the amount released at a time, not sure.

a 60 degree inclusive micro on a 50 degree inclusive relief pobably isn't going to impress anyone. What the lower angles does is improve cutting ability, not sharpness. Sharpness is what happens right at the edge, where you get the bite of a good slicer or the smooth cut of a fine razor. Cutting ability is what goes on above the cutting edge, where the angle of the edge bevel, relief bevel, primary grind, ultimate stock thickness, blade height, etc. affect how easily the entire blade cuts through the material. The razor can shave hair because of sharpness, you can shave the hair on your face because of the cutting ability.

Lowering the edge angle magnifies the 'tooth' of any grit, and also makes the knife thinner immediately behind the edge; so it enters into the media more easily behind the sharp edge.
 
Kohai999 said:
1. People that have been putting out good, solid information for longer than you or I seems pretty relevant...but maybe not to you.
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You are twisting the meaning of my words and you know it. Considering your dislike of other people doing it, I am surprised you stoop that low. I pointed out that this is a special project and not to compare with usual knife testing. The test is clearly more one of the steel rather one of the knife. So explain to me why you think factory bevel matters and explain to me of what relevance the opinion of the bladeforum grand daddies (no disrespect of those people intended) matters on the subject of factory bevels as pertaining to the mules. Tell me in concise terms, what anyone would learn from a test at factory geometry?

Kohai999 said:
..and people will hopefully supply feedback...which I gave gud4u props for.
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So you hope that people supply feedback and the first person to do so you tell, that his findings and experiments are worthless. That is an interesting approach to encourage people supplying feedback.:confused:. Not to mention that your first post clearly insinuated unethical behavior on the OPs part by implying that he should have asked permission to modify the edge angle of the mule. Seriously, what were you thinking when you posted that question. Are you really surprised at the response you got?

Kohai999 said:
3. I understand what you are saying with about carbide volume theories ..but that was not included in his succinct wrap up of the testing.
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So you need to have the tester spell out every conclusion? To perk up at gud4u's findings, especially after the long debates including Cliff and the often invocation of Landes' theory, it seems obvious to think in that direction, even if it doesn't turn out to be the reason.
 
Larrin said:
Poor edge stability isn't the only cause of chipping. At that angle of bevel and degree of chipping it's probably because of poor toughness. It's hard to say without actually seeing the knife of course.
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Well, I guess, I am using the term "edge stability" a bit different. I was thinking that the lack of edge stability in the case of chipping could either be the result of low toughness, as low bulk toughness will certainly also affect a thin geometry, or in the case of high bulk toughness could come about due to effects that appear only when the geometry reaches the dimensions of the structural elements of the steel, e.g. carbide tear out. Poor edge stability in the case of rolling, I would attribute to lack of hardness.

Now, in prior discussions, it was claimed by some that a steel with a low carbide fraction could be run a lot harder (reducing bulk toughness) without reducing the edge stability below that of a steel with large carbide fraction at lower hardness, hence increasing edge strength and improving overall performance. This seems to be thrown into question now (I mean we will have to wait for other mules). If S30V with a whopping carbide fraction will support an edge at Rc59-60 that an extremely fine grained steel with low carbide fraction at Rc62 will not support any more, then the whole idea of going to fine grained steel with a lower carbide fraction at high hardness to improve performance seem very questionable to me. And I think the Vanadium carbides were speculated to be particularly detrimental to edge stability of which 52100 has none.

As to toughness in general, I would have expected 52100 at Rc62 to be tougher than ZDP-189 at Rc64+ (actually by quite a bit). And considering the enormous carbide fraction in ZDP-189 I would have expected a MUCH higher edge stability (less chance of carbide tearout + higher bulk toughness) for the 52100. I have whittled hardwood with 12 deg terminal angle on ZDP-189 without any problems. Also, I seem to recall several people thinning out Byrds with a steel containing a decent carbide fraction at Rc60-61 well below 10 deg per side, without loosing sensible edge stability. Again something that seems to go directly against the prediction that one would draw from Landes' model, or am I missing something here?
 
HoB said:
Now, in prior discussions, it was claimed by some that a steel with a low carbide fraction could be run a lot harder (reducing bulk toughness) without reducing the edge stability below that of a steel with large carbide fraction at lower hardness, hence increasing edge strength and improving overall performance. This seems to be thrown into question now (I mean we will have to wait for other mules). If S30V with a whopping carbide fraction will support an edge at Rc59-60 that an extremely fine grained steel with low carbide fraction at Rc62 will not support any more, then the whole idea of going to fine grained steel with a lower carbide fraction at high hardness to improve performance seem very questionable to me. And I think the Vanadium carbides were speculated to be particularly detrimental to edge stability of which 52100 has none.

As to toughness in general, I would have expected 52100 at Rc62 to be tougher than ZDP-189 at Rc64+ (actually by quite a bit). And considering the enormous carbide fraction in ZDP-189 I would have expected a MUCH higher edge stability (less chance of carbide tearout + higher bulk toughness) for the 52100. I have whittled hardwood with 12 deg terminal angle on ZDP-189 without any problems. Also, I seem to recall several people thinning out Byrds with a steel containing a decent carbide fraction at Rc60-61 well below 10 deg per side, without loosing sensible edge stability. Again something that seems to go directly against the prediction that one would draw from Landes' model, or am I missing something here?
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Hi, HoB. I don't think you're missing anything here, but it seems premature to me to be anticipating any conclusions at this point, based upon only one incident and example. gud4u's mule might simply have some issue, possibly some problem with heat treat or overheating near the edge during manufacture. We really can't assume anything yet, but if others start reporting similar behavior.... And even if we were to see this with different batches of 52100 from different vendors, we'd still be limited in our ability to generalize more broadly, e.g. if we were to then consider a steel like O-1 which easily holds an edge well with more acute geometries (think Frosts laminated Moras.)

Personally I'm inclined to think that edge stability is affected by a range of factors, of which carbide fraction is but one. However after reading your remarks here -- and BTW they are very thoughtful -- I think this may prove to be one of the more interesting things to come out of this mule team project.
 
HoB said:
As to toughness in general, I would have expected 52100 at Rc62 to be tougher than ZDP-189 at Rc64+ (actually by quite a bit). And considering the enormous carbide fraction in ZDP-189 I would have expected a MUCH higher edge stability (less chance of carbide tearout + higher bulk toughness) for the 52100. I have whittled hardwood with 12 deg terminal angle on ZDP-189 without any problems. Also, I seem to recall several people thinning out Byrds with a steel containing a decent carbide fraction at Rc60-61 well below 10 deg per side, without loosing sensible edge stability. Again something that seems to go directly against the prediction that one would draw from Landes' model, or am I missing something here?
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I agree, here, these results are not what I expected. I have had many 52100 blades in the past almost all were custom blades and most were razor sharp fairly thin edges and I never had a chipping issue and I know I had included angles close to this knife. I would have expected 52100 to spank the other steels mentioned.
 
Dog of War said:
but it seems premature to me to be anticipating any conclusions at this point, based upon only one incident and example.
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Absolutely! Very important to keep that in mind and I don't want to over-interpret gud4u's findings. I just wanted to point out, just how interesting his described experiences are.
 
HoB said:
Absolutely! Very important to keep that in mind and I don't want to over-interpret gud4u's findings. I just wanted to point out, just how interesting his described experiences are.
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Yes, this is already becoming very interesting IMO. This why I appreciate it when someone jumps in and takes the edge on a new blade down to an angle where you're really going to get an idea of just what it's capable of.

Cobalt's comments hint at something else that's been in the back of my mind here as well, which is that I don't recall ever seeing 52100 used in production blades before. Again from what I've read about working with this steel, it sounds like you need to limit soak time and get a quick quench with temperature very well controlled -- probably not such a big deal for a forger working on a single blade, but potentially a challenge in a production environment ... ???
 
Just a quick comment on edge stability. Its my understanding edge stability depends on toughness as well as carbide volume. At these high hardnesses toughness can have very sharp peaks with regard to tempering temperature that a 25-30 F difference can miss.
 
HoB said:
You are twisting the meaning of my words and you know it. Considering your dislike of other people doing it, I am surprised you stoop that low. I pointed out that this is a special project and not to compare with usual knife testing. The test is clearly more one of the steel rather one of the knife..
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1. I am not going to debate with you HoB....and I'll be done with this section of the Forums as well, I forgot how much fun it was.:eek: I think that the edge geometry from the factory shows....1) consistency, stability and durability of a factory edge, and the steel it is on, which is great feedback from the AVERAGE user POV. 2) Gives a baseline from which to work, because not everyone reprofiling an edge may be consistent, or even good at it.


HoB said:
So you hope that people supply feedback and the first person to do so you tell, that his findings and experiments are worthless. That is an interesting approach to encourage people supplying feedback.:confused:. Not to mention that your first post clearly insinuated unethical behavior on the OPs part by implying that he should have asked permission to modify the edge angle of the mule. Seriously, what were you thinking when you posted that question. Are you really surprised at the response you got?..
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I swear this is like talking with Cliff all over again.....NO I did not insinuate that gud4u was unethical....said that it didn't make sense to me...Sal is totally accessible most of the time, and thought that some degree of communication with him concerning his observations on the steel with the mule might be useful...if you got "unethical" out of that...there is nothing to say...not only am not surprised by the "response you got", but it was sadly, expected.


HoB said:
So you need to have the tester spell out every conclusion? To perk up at gud4u's findings, especially after the long debates including Cliff and the often invocation of Landes' theory, it seems obvious to think in that direction, even if it doesn't turn out to be the reason.
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Sadly(truly) I missed a lot of what Cliff had to say, because of the excessive posturing and attacking of people like Wayne Goddard...and because of the personal hatred that I held for him, due to his attacks on Thomas Welk....so it didn't even register.

Enjoy your Forum experience...if I have anything different to note, I'll contact Sal myself.

Go Chargers!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
as my sharpening skills are simply atrocious, i believe i'll leave the factory edge angle settings intact so that I will have more accurate comparisons b/w mules of different steels...only thing i'm going to do with my mule teams is strop them on leather...
 
Kevin Cashen has stated on his website and in several forum posts that 52100 can exhibit good properties, but requires the maker to 'jump through hoops' in heat treat to achieve them. He prefers steels with a more straight forward HT.

The rake handle cutting might also be affected by something like ergos. If the mule is less comfortable to handle compared to the other knives, control may have been less precise and a cause for lateral loading and the chipping. Still, any start is a good one, generates conversation.
 
In my description, I used the term 'durability' intentionally, in an attempt to stay away from terms that seem to have some specific technical definition. In other words, a 'durable' edge is one that doesn't chip, fracture or roll in use - a generic description of how an edge survives in practical use.

I think both Landes and Cliff Stamp really had the same intention when they talk of 'edge stability', but the result seems to have taken on some specific definition - but no one really is quite certain about the definition.

For myself, the most meaningful practical results of the two test of the 52100 Mule, were the comparisons to several 'standard' blades whose characteristics are well known.

In the first test, the Mule was edged identically to other blades - by the same person - by the same method - and tested with the same test media. The S30V Manix, BG-42 Military and VG10 Ronin all have 10 degree main (or relief) bevels with very narrow 15 degree bevels. These blades passed the same test that the 52100 Mule did not.

The fact that the micro-bevel had to be broadened to a more durable secondary bevel to pass the same tests is, I believe, a meaningful result. By meaningful, I mean the direct comparison with the other blades as 'standards' whose performance is well known by most on this forum.

My use of a final 30 degrees included edge bevel for most of my blades is derived from the same test - simply because most of my blades can't tolerate any less final edge angle in that test. An exception is an older Spyderco 440V Military, which passes with a final edge bevel of about 25 degrees.

Gunmike1's description of the benefits of micro-bevels is quite good. I absolutely agree.

A properly done convex edge is absolutely ideal, preferable to a compound bevel in theory, simply because of lack of the shoulder between bevel transitions. I use compound bevels simply because I believe I can more accurately reproduce the two bevels of a compound bevel than I can reproduce a convex edge.

In an attempt at accurate honing angle measurements, I use a jig to elevate the spine of the blade at the start of the honing stroke, and hold that angle constant during the honing stroke on a horizontal honing surface. I use simple trig to calculate jig height, corrected for spine-width. The drawback to this method is that jig height is different for different blades due differing measurements (yes, I do use a digital caliper). Gunmike1's solution is less time-consuming.

Hope this helps!
 
gud4u's test is quite relevant as steel performance is important. Factory edge testing is also important but my experience has nearly always been that my edges last longer after the first big resharpening than from the factory.

Rc of 62 is high but 52100 is known for that and I have seen it perform better than most other steels at that range. It will be interesting to see if this performance is expected or as Spyderco indicates, HT: "It is a dificult steel to HT"

If you look at the HT resources for 52100 it is one of the steels that require long drawn out(no pun intended) HT/quench/tempering/cooling cycles. 50-70 hours of HT is not unusual for this steel. That is why it has mostly been a custom steel and not a production steel. How many mfg's are willing to spend that kind of time on a knife. This may be part of the problem. Also, if you do the knives in a batch as most mfg's do, how do you remove the problem of the ideal location of each knife within an oven.

Earlier I said "most" of my 52100 have been customs, the only knives that I own made of 52100 are my swamp rat knives and Busse does take 80+ hours to HT those, hence their extreme toughness.
 
I wouldn't lump Landes in with alot of what Cliff says about low carbide steels. Yes Cliff will and does refer to landes. However, Landes from what I've seen is much more limited in what and how the low carbide is an effect on edges. I cann't find his post without the search but it is something like under 24 degrees, 12 per side and a very high polish higher than 8000 grit. Both ffacters are needed before the carbides are an issue. Cliff and others seem to ignore those limitations and seem to relate the carbide theory to everything unlike Landes. Sometimes I am surprised I don't read that the large carbides are the reason a knife handle feels uncomfortable. :)
 
here is another thread

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344902


db said:
I wouldn't lump Landes in with alot of what Cliff says about low carbide steels. Yes Cliff will and does refer to landes. However, Landes from what I've seen is much more limited in what and how the low carbide is an effect on edges. I cann't find his post without the search but it is something like under 24 degrees, 12 per side and a very high polish higher than 8000 grit. Both ffacters are needed before the carbides are an issue. Cliff and others seem to ignore those limitations and seem to relate the carbide theory to everything unlike Landes. Sometimes I am surprised I don't read that the large carbides are the reason a knife handle feels uncomfortable. :)
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