Some work with a modified Livesay RTAK

I didn't mean to put Newt on the spot! Anyone else might hazard an answer too. Maybe the answer is "no difference in mission parameters", Newt is simply offering his customers alternatives for the same mission, or "if you're over 6'2" and have a palm span of 3" or more, choose the larger knife, otherwise choose the smaller one." Seems like the AK would do better with harder woods than the RCM. Perhaps it is the wood type that would favor one over another, etc.
 
Newt Livesay :

[AK]

I have had a number of people using the knife around the shop here, and so far every one seems to find it quite functional.

Handles are quite personal, I don't doubt that there are many who will like it as it currently stands.

In regards to the edge profile as modified in the above. I have been using it as of late for limbing and it has held up with no problems. Yesterday, towards the end of the day I decided to do the worst thing you can do with a blade wood craft wise, and used it to sweep dead limbs off the trees in the low light areas. This is really not necessary as you can beat them off, and they break more than cut and thus are very hard on a blade. To survive this, a blade needs a high impact toughness to resist fracture as well as a very high strength to resist bending.

I cleared off a few dozen trees, so it was in the range of 500 chops so. I spent most of the time working on the trees with the branches, in the 1/2" to 1" range as they have the best (worst) size to produce the most stressful combination of high pressure and necessary stiffness. Anyway, after all that hacking, the edge was undamaged. The Tramontina bolo, with a similar edge profile, can not do this for an extended period of time without experiencing visible ripples (~1-m mm deep), showing the advantage of a harder steel.

I took the profile down again yesterday evening and shaped the handle a bit more. The edge bevel is now ~ 3/8" wide on one side (the primary grind is uneven). I'll use this for some time again on normal work before I do the harder limbing. As usual starting with the lightest limbing and working my way up.

In regards to design, wider blades (with the same stock thickness), can offer slimmer profiles, and thus give better cutting performance. They are also stiffer, which has advantages for thick wood work, and are heavier and thus offer more potential power. However the extra weight makes the fatigue rate much greater for lighter vegetation, and the wider blades makes turning the blade in material more cumbersome. Extra blade length is great for reach, but tends to limit the blade for "knife like" use.

-Cliff
 
Matthew;

I didn't mean to put Newt on the spot!

Don't worry Matthew about the question. The reason I have not gotten back to you on the post isn't that you might have "put me on the spot." It is just that I am so busy I have not been able to stop, read, or comment on the thread.

I am working 16 hour days to try to get my shop moved to the new location, and also get out production. The LAK4 "AK" knife is selling faster than I can laser them out. We are starting our second laser burn as soon as the new steel comes in for the knives.

I don't know if it is this thread, the AK sale or just the fact that everyone wants one, but over the last four days we are averaging 16 knives per day being ordered world wide.

I am having a fast lunch, read the mail, and post to you here Matthew right now. Tonight after 2100 hours central time I have allotted my self about 3 hours to work on line. I will post a reply to your questions then.

Thanks,
Newt
Links to the AK Machete Camp Knife
 
Matthew,

I didn't mean to put Newt on the spot! Anyone else might hazard an answer too. Maybe the answer is "no difference in mission parameters", Newt is simply offering his customers alternatives for the same mission, or "if you're over 6'2" and have a palm span of 3" or more, choose the larger knife, otherwise choose the smaller one." Seems like the AK would do better with harder woods than the RCM. Perhaps it is the wood type that would favor one over another, etc.

Matthew as I said in a earlier post, you did not put me on a spot with the question. After reading about 300 emails your eyes get tired, and start to burn and your fingers also start to get a little fat. I am just so covered up with work I was not able to answer until now. I tried not to even look at the internet or an e-mail all weekend long.

Now about why anyone would pick the LAK4 “AK” Machete-Camp Knife & Survival Tool over the RCM is beyond me. Now let me explain what I mean by that by asking you a question. Why would you or anyone else pick a combat style tactical folder as a everyday carry piece over a three bladed stockman if you only use a knife for normal house and office chores or just as a everyday carry? The 3-bladed stockman would have three blades compared to most tactical knives that have only one blade, so the logic is that you can carry a knife that will have a blade that is sharp at least 200% more than the single blade. Now to me that makes sense if you are carrying a knife to use as a everyday tool. Would you not have more blades to use when one goes dull, and wouldn’t the chances of you getting in trouble be lessened because the stockman is by far less aggressive looking. I guess what I am saying is that we all are looking for or wanting too try something different once in a while.

So why would anyone pick a AK over a RCM? Well I am going to go into a little bit of a history lesson on these knives if I may. So here is the first of a two part post.

Jeff Randall once said "that the RCM is an excellent piece and will out-chop a thinner 'cheap machete' on larger and harder material, but it's no match for typical tropical vegetation when cutting trail or slashing vines along tributaries out of a moving boat."

I would also say that the Recon Combat Machete is an excellent knife when you need a good knife to put through it’s paces in either the jungle or a hard wood forest. They question that is always being asked by some one is if you were given a choice of only one knife to carry what would it be? I have always said that it would be a machete, and I agreed with Jeff’s choice for a long time on the Machete knife that I would have carried. Jeff’s quote; “Again, with a choice of one (1) blade, I will choose the RCM.” With the advent of the Randall RTAK in early 1999 which was a combination of a working machetes (RCM), and other knives my likes, and I am sure Jeff’s likes changed some. The RCM served, and still does serve a notch in my knife line that many personnel like, and use.

WHY? Well in my opinion it is a tried and true design that has proven it’s self over the years as a good utility blade with the drug task force people, military personnel, and just plain good folks who want a camp knife to cut a trail or gut a deer.

As a young man I owned a number of French Machetes that were made for their military. Most were one-quarter inch thick carbon blades with thick wooden handles, and the machete came housed in heavy horsehide sheaths. These knives for many years could be had all over South East Asia for about $1.00. I loved this knife, and carried an used a number of them in my early years. I loved two other knives also, and they were the Western Bowie, and the Western Big Eight. Now to me what else could be better than to combine these three knives to make a all around utility knife. In late 1989 the first of the RCM machetes came into being. Early RCM machete had a slightly thicker handle than the present knives do, and also a birds pommel which was some of the Western Bowie influence.

Early RCM machetes were made with .250 inch 1095 high carbon tool steel also. This heavier blade was idea for the hard wood forest that the Drug Task Force people were working in. Also the bigger knife with it’s re-enforced tip grind would hold up better, and cause less arm fatigue over the lighter Ontario Machetes they were being used. Quoting Randall again, “The RCM is an excellent piece and will out-chop a thinner 'cheap machete' on larger and harder material, but it's no match for typical tropical vegetation when cutting trail or slashing vines along tributaries out of a moving boat.” Ok most of the work that the RCM is seeing is heavy hard wood covered terrain, and it is chopping thick hard fibrous Marijuana plants. As an example I have been on raids where we were cutting plants that were over ten feet tall, and three to four inches in diameter at the ground. We would cut the plants off near the ground, and then used the tip or blade of the RCM to literally pry the root ball out of the ground. In other words we didn’t leave anything there for the dopers but the raider's death card for those in the know. The thin Ontario Machete knives did not hold up as well too the heavy cutting, and prying. Thickness of the blade is one thing, but the heat treat is the major factor on any knife’s over all performance. The RTAK that I made was another knife that most found to be a excellent dope cutter. Dropping the thickness of the metal stock used on the RCM from .214 inch too .204 inches for the RTAK, and now the AK doesn’t effect the strength of the blades to any noticeable degree.

About the fatigue factor for heavy blades compared to thin blades? Well I will admit that a thinner lighter blade isn’t gong to be as apt to cause fatigue as fast as a heavy blade. However one of the problems that has always been a concern and factor when using thinner, lighter blades is the shock transference into the users hands, wrist, arms, and joints. The symptoms are similar to what was at one time known as “tennis elbow.” We call some of these problems "CTS" now, and this leads to the burning in the hands, and forearm from the shock transference. It is fierce for the plastic handled cheaper machetes, and the really thin knives. Personnel that were using these knives in everyday operations were not happy at all. One thing about the heavier blades they do tend to absorb some of the shock from blade impact, and the better handle materials, and designs cause less blisters from hot spots, and/or from the smooth plastic composites. Some of the cheaper machetes that are floating around have wooden handle that are coated with clear “Shellac” that is strictly for show. Just as inferior shovel handles, hammer handles, rake or axe handles are fire-streaked, and Shellacked so are the cheap machete handles. They look pretty, but they will cause severe blistering of the hands with any prolonged usage.

So with that here is what Cliff Stamp said about the fatigue rate, "In regards to design, wider blades (with the same stock thickness), can offer slimmer profiles, and thus give better cutting performance. They are also stiffer, which has advantages for thick wood work, and are heavier and thus offer more potential power. However the extra weight makes the fatigue rate much greater for lighter vegetation, ……"

I don't under stand the "lighter vegetation" quote, but I am sure Cliff will enlighten us on this.

end of part one........thank goodness!
 
part 2;

With the RTAK a new handle design, and the proven shape of the RCM blade came into play. The bend or off set 5% handle angle of the RTAK opened up a new user friendly handle design. The blade was clipped like the very early RCM were, but the think that set the RTAK off was the handle and how it felt in one's hand. Over all many people using the RTAK seemed to like the looks of the knife as well as the feel of the handle over the RCM. The RTAK knife also got a lot of play in the jungles of South America with people like Jeff Randall, Jason Cherry, Brian Harnden, and countless others. I have carried an RTAK on over five expedition to South America, and while attending the Peruvian Militaries Jungle Survival School know as ESSEL. I have now retired my Peruvian RTAK to a display rack. I do not ever want to loose this knife to a zealot at customs or in the field. I have used the RCM in Peru, and had an excellent time using it in everyday jungle work. My next knife for jungle work is going to be a trip with a new AK.

Why would I use it over the RCM? Well not trying to be a smart ass, but because I can more than anything else. However I really like the looks, feel, and overall performance of this knife so far.

There is a fair amount of power that can be delivered with the heavier blade of these knives. I like the control that is achieved with the longer pommel lip on the handle of the AK also. The South Sea Islands and the area that is known as Southern Asia have always had an influence on blade design. The people have used the large Bolo, Khukuris, Barong, Golok, Panabas, and Goloro style blades for years. Little wiry squirts go about swinging long, wide knives all day, and never say a damn thing about being tired. These proven knife designs with their wider, longer blades still have a place in the jungles, and woods of our modern day I believe.

The knife that started out as a RCM has been used, worked, and fused it’s into a new knife. Advantages of the AK over the RCM I believe are two fold. One the bend in the handle itself, and the overall design of the new handle on the AK. This rounded cant or bend in the handle of the AK gives the user an advantage by putting their wrist angle in a position where fatigue, or injuries from strain or shock are not as great. These injuries are due too the stress your arm and joints come under, and are prevalent under continued usage of a chopping tool such as a machete. An example is that as you use the knife the cant in the handle along with the added weight works like the bend in the Khukuris knife. There is a lot less shock transference felt when chopping when compared to a straight handled machete. The handle is too the AK, as the bend in the blade is to a Khukuris.

Why would the people want to use the AK over the RCM? Well as Matthew said, “ Maybe the answer is ‘no difference in mission parameters’, Newt is simply offering his customers alternatives for the same mission…..”

Matthew I would say that this along with a superior new design in the “AK’ is most likely as good an answer as could be given. Why is there so many knife designs? Like you sort of like you said too give or offer your customers an alternatives for the same mission be it cutting grass, whittling a pencil, chopping a fire lane, digging a fire pit, or crawling through a jet black cave in the mountains of Northern Afghanistan. What it all get down too is offering you and me another choice.

One other thing that has come up is the weight of these knives. I am going to post the weight of all these knives I have talked about in the next few days. The postal service said I could weigh them at the post office for shipping purposes of course.

I hope this answered your questons.
Newt



Web Link to the AK
 
In lighter vegetation, the heavier blades are overkill, and a lot of work has to be done in actually stopping them after the cut. Take a ~2 lbs khukuri and cut hay with it, and you will get very tired in minutes, whereas a much lighter ~1/16" machete will allow you to work all day long. However just as you noted Newt, make the wood a bit harder and the performance drastically switches. This is just another example of the fact that you can't have the best at everything in the one knife. The optimal design for light vegetation (grasses and such), isn't the same as for hard woods.

In regards to vibration, this is very true, however you won't tend to notice it unless you work for an extended period of time or are injured. I was using the RTAK with the new edge profile yesterday, and the Tramontina Bolo bucking up some pine and fir from six to 3 inches in diameter. I had a small rip across the top of my middile finger on my right hand, and I could notice a huge difference in the impact vibration, which heavily favored the RTAK. The bolo was enlarging the tear readily, and quite frankly would have been a serious problem if you were out and about, because extended work would enlarge and deepen the tear.

The handles are a critical factor is it true, but one of the largest problems is just the lack of stiffness with the lighter machetes. They will actually vibrate along their length upon impact and this vibration gets damped out by your grip, so you have to absorb it. Technique goes a long way in minimizing it, but you can't get rid of it completely. Just take a machete and something like the AK/RCM and slap both of them off a piece of wood and watch the induced vibration. The thicker, and harder blade will take much less flex, and thus be much more stable in hand with heavy chopping.

The latest edge profile on the custom RTAK, allowed a dowel cut of 11-12 slices, a significant improvent, and its bucking ability is now virtually identical to the Bolo, with a greater edge (and overall) durability, and more functionality in general due to the stiffer blade, and more ergonomic handle. Corrosion resistance is also much higher on the RTAK, the coating is still working despite the very heavy wear. The bolo showed visible evidence of corrosion while the RTAK didn't in the same exposure (rain).

Newt thanks for the design details, it made for interesting reading.

-Cliff
 
Newt that was a great reply, thank you. Cliff, as usual your insights are welcome as well. Let me see if I can summarize Newt though...

Mission parameters are similar, but not necessarily identical.

The AK is the product of some more years of experience with the mission, and sports several improvements in relation to it including, the handle shape, cant, blade width, length, and narrowness (if I read you correctly the AK is <i>thinner</i> than the RCM [.204" vs .214"]) although this difference is less than 1/64th inch!

So for most missions in which either knife might be selected, the AK will be just a little better. More <i>refined</i> as it were...

On the other hand, we have general agreement that if the medium to be cut is very much softer than woody tissue, there are advantages to thinner and lighter machetes altogether, down to the point of their being very thin and light - for grasses. So what happens in between these two extremes? As an example take the very mission for which the RCM was conceived, felling large marijuana plants. Marijuana is strong and fibrous, but it is not exactly like a real wood. Not like pine for example, or even willow. Would the straight edge to handle arrangement and weight of the RCM be an advantage there, or would the AK be a better choice even in that role?

I realize individual preference and practice makes a big difference when the choices are very narrow. I guess what I am trying to get at is what role, if any, and besides the dictates of individual preference, is the RCM still best suited for? I am interested in any opinions on this, but most especially of course Newt's.

Finally, the weights of these knives would be very interesting. If they differ widely, it would be an important factor in understanding their relative merits.
 
Matthew;
The blade thickness on the early Recon Combat Machetes "RCM" also written up and refered to in some magazine articles as the "Rapid Deployment" was .214 inches thick.

I would have to do some digging around to get the exact date that I quite using the .214" material and switched to .204" steel. The .204" material really makes a difference in the weight of the knife compared to the .214 inch material. I have not however noticed any difference in the ability of the thinner knife's preformance, and that of the .214 inch steel, nor have I heard any report to the contrary either.

I am being summoned for something, and will try to give you a answer to the rest of the questions tomorrow when I return to work.

Newt
Newt Livesay Web Pages
 
Thanks Newt. I'm pretty sure I have one of the newer .204 RCMs (its my favorite "big knife") as I measure it out pretty exactly to 3/16" and .204 figure is 1/64th greater than that, while .214 is that much closer to 7/32. My neighbor has a decent calipers so when he comes home I'll measure more exactly.

I'm just curious if you think there is anything that the RCM does better than the more refined AK. Perhaps it is not an "anything" but rather an "any one" individual taste being very important in these matters.

Thanks, and please don't feel you have to spend a lot of time on these academic questions. They are just for sake of discussion here. Be well and God bless!
 
Matthew;

I'm just curious if you think there is anything that the RCM does better than the more refined AK.

I think the RCM is one of the best designs that I have ever come up with in a Machete, and I also think that it still has a place in the knife world as a traditional knife. Like you said a lot of this depends on the personnel taste of the individual.

As I have stated in an earlier post I have put this knife through several changes in it’s life time with me. A photo of a real early RCM with the first handle design that I refer too as the birds head pommel model is located here.

EARLY CONTRACT RCM

The “Bird head pommel” on most commercial and military knives that had been made by different companies in the world for years served two purposes. In reference to the military aspect it was a wonder weapon for driving into soft tissue as a pressure tool or into the skull, or other hard targets to in flick massive trauma. Second and later when used in the quote “civilian knives” market it gave that appearance of power, yet stylish in it own way. You have to realize that there was also a difference in how people looked at knives, and weapons during the early inception of these designs with the end of two world wars. Everyone wanted a knife that looks somewhat like the one that their dad or uncle, etc carried in the war.

Thus the “Birds head pommel” on the RCM was from the influence of the Western Bowie Knife that was made in Colorado. I dropped the pointed pommel after I found that it hunt your hand in everyday carry, and really served my purpose on the RCM. I also found that my customers wanted the ability to be able too beat or pound on the butt or pommel of the knife without doing damage to the handles. This usage of the tool far out weighted the looks of the knife with the birds head.

If you note the blade of the contract knife shown in the photo with the link above has a saw back on it. This was part of the contract to be able to saw their way out of a Helo crash. I tried to tell them that all the Helo crashes I had see every one was dead from impact and those that weren’t had massive back and spinal compactions. Mine is not to question why so I gave them what was asked for.

As a side note does the saw on the knife/or did the saw work? Yes! I cut a large tree down with one, and used it to saw some boards, and other debris. Would I use it again? Only if I could not find my chain saw?

With the evolution of the LAK4 I took the information that I had learned from true users, and needs into play with the extended metal pommel of the knife. This exposed pommel works well as a point of impact for pounding the knife into your work, and also will work quite well as a weapon if need be much as the birds heads were designed for.

Thanks for the questions.
Newt
LIVESAY COMBAT KNIFE WEB PAGE
 
I finished up the final work this weekend, including the last stock cutting with the final edge profile as well as several days of limbing and bucking with a small amount of felling.

The edge finally gave way under the hardest of limbing work, keep in mind the final profile was very slim and acute and the technique very poor intentionally.

Personally, this was an impressive performance, from a pure steel standpoint. Details :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/rtak.html

-Cliff
 
An excellent review Cliff. The results you saw surpassed my high expectations of the knife. This is an excellent example for the argument that heat treatment is, in the words of Newt Livesay, "the soul of the blade." As can be seen on his website, Newt treats his 1095 harder than most people (at 62 RC, it surpasses any production company that I know of), yet because of the consistency of his method, and the specific time and tempature curves he uses, the result is a steel that is hard, and strong capable holding a great edge, yet not be prone to chipping or other signs of brittleness.
This also reinforces an argument that I have made in the past, that a machete class blade should be heat treated harder than is generally the case. The harder steel, if heat treated properly, has the advantage of being much stronger, and therefore more resistant to dulling by deformation (edge roll). The harder, stronger steel also allows for a thinner edge geometery, thus greatly improving performance.
As a wrap up, the knife is now returning to Siloh Springs where it began its journey. There it will be re-united with its maker Newt Livesay. This knife has been through more in a few short years than most knives will ever see. Between Cliff and I, it has chopped plenty of wood, that is for sure. It may show some wear, but other knives would have long given up the ghost, and not have performed as well.

Cliff,
Thanks for the review.

Newt,
Thanks for making such an excellent knife.

Take care,
Chad
 
chad :

Newt treats his 1095 harder than most people (at 62 RC, it surpasses any production company that I know of), yet because of the consistency of his method, and the specific time and tempature curves he uses, the result is a steel that is hard, and strong capable holding a great edge, yet not be prone to chipping or other signs of brittleness.

There is a lot of misconception about hardness, mainly because of the popularity of stainless steels. The much tougher spring steels have very different behavior than the stainless steels. A stainless blade would have taken a huge blowout with the same profile that was on the RTAK at the end, and would have been damaged long before that. This is the true advantage of using the much tougher steels, we are not talking a few percent points but many to one differences in impact toughness.


... a machete class blade should be heat treated harder than is generally the case. The harder steel, if heat treated properly, has the advantage of being much stronger, and therefore more resistant to dulling by deformation (edge roll). The harder, stronger steel also allows for a thinner edge geometery, thus greatly improving performance.

Yes, pretty much as I see it also, the potentional is there to build a much better knife in all respects. You don't need to leave a blade at 45-50 RC to have a high enough level of toughness assuming you pick the right steel and heat treat it properly. It was very nice to work with such a blade, there is not a lot of them available at that level of quality. The performance was much higher than I expected in regards to the level of geometry I was able to work with, which is always good.

-Cliff
 
Newt,

I didn't know you used 1084 for swords. Have you ever thought of making a full-length, 18-22" machete? Call it a Bush Sword if you want, have a sheath you can wear across the back and under the pack, doubles as canoe paddle :D

I think that'll be coooool.
 
Tailwingedgoat,
Funny you should ask that question! I have made just such a knife/sword/whacker/machetes that you spoke of. The only one that I happen to know of belongs to Jerry VanCook the writer out of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Jerry has one of these swords/machete and did a article about it in a earlier edition of Tactical Knives. There even is a photo or two of the knife in one of the magazine articles that Jerry wrote. I can not remember the date on the article, but someone might know who is reading this thread. I will explain farther down the disadvantages in the back carry IMO.

If you ever watch any of the first 18 television shows of Soldier Of Fortune the TV series, or watch any soap operas, and last the Dodge truck commercial on TV now where the guy says "Turn left now?" Well that actor who is the co-pilot in the Dodge commercial, and detective on one of the soaps, is my friend and customer named Re'al Andrews. I build a shoulder/back rig for Re'al to wear on the SOF series that held two of the WASP Machetes across his back. I have never seen all 18 of the original series of the show nor have or did I see the rig being used. I have seen my HKR (Hunter Killer Retriever) Team Knife , and an assortment of neck knives being used by Re'al aka "Chance" Walker, Mark Shephard aka Christopher Yates, and buddy Tim Abell aka Benny Ray Riddle in a couple of the shows. A note is that Tim in the movie plays a sniper. Well Tim is the real deal when it comes to knowing his stuff. Tim was a U.S. Army Airborne Ranger, and all around good troop.

As far as I know the star of the show Brad Johnson aka Major Matthew Shepherd, or Melinda Clarke aka Margo Vincent never carried any of my product.

I also build a back rig for one of my short swords a few years ago, and the man who purchased at a show in Las Vegas was carrying it to his apartment stuffed into a back pack that was of course across his back when he was nearly arrested. To me all swords in the back carry rigs are a great idea, and look as you say "cool" but to be of any practicality it has to stick up above the shirt collar so you can get it out? That is the problem with the back carry of all large knives IMO. As a matter of fact the man and his running buddy (these guys are crazier than sh*t house chipmunks) came to see me at a show about one year later, and related the story about the near arrest by untold numbers of Las Vegas Police Officers. To make it short the officer with his hand on his "Glock" that confronted him in the alley refered to my customer as "Highlander." (Funny story some other time)

So this is why the back carry in a modern day world isn't a real easy item to conceal. Also it is difficult to re-sheath a back carry rig. I do have a carry for a upside down/swivel rig that works pretty well with a three-quarter or longer coat. However practice is the only way to get one of these bigger knives out quick. The upside down swivel rig will let you re-sheath the knife a little quicker than the back rigs also. Years ago the Avenging Angel of the Mormon Church, Mr Porter Rockwell carried a 10 gauge double barrel shot gun like this, and later it is said that Al Capone like the idea so much that he had a Browning 12 gauge take down rigged in the same manner.

Thanks for the question
Newt
 
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