Someone explain this one to me

[hawkwind]

It is common mistake that muslims dont respect bible, or christians.
Quite contrary. They respect both jewish and christians.
The jewish people have lived together with muslims for long time and they were respected aswell.
Any historian tells you that religious intolerance was brought into near and middle east by christians and first during crusades.
Read your history books first and learn to understand, that world DOESNT LOOK as you are told.
Who they dont respect and like are atheists. It is also a common misconception that US people are atheists, but widespread all over the world.
On the other side US christian church is sectarian with all the branches which doesnt help understanding what is what.

Black and white understanding of world picture is even more common amongst todays US citizens, at least judging reactions of many people, than amongst todays muslims and that starting with the head of your state.
Its surelly soft job to let anybody else tell you who s your ENEMY and let him also tell you what to do at any situation.

Back to topic - with all respect to any nationall symboll burning the flag is proper disposal of it. I have been tought this in the school. When somebody burns it he wants to dispose of it. Much worse it have been e.g. to stretch it on the ground and let the people walk over it - this is desecration of flag. I dont doubt that burning U.S. flag in the muslim states has symbolic meaning, but surelly ENEMY must be identified by muslims as is by U.S.

Contrary burning any book I would consider simply stupid and bigot, and the coparission with german nazis who did this is on the right place. Identification of any absolutistic state starts with public burning of certain books. This happens in U.S. all the time starting with schooll textbooks concerning evolutionism.

Its surelly amazing that equation of state symbol to religious item (as it happens just on the beginning of this thread) happens from all-considered citizens of "atheistic state". Even more interesting is fact that this is happening in the western world.

I m still waiting for Munks imput on this matter.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Trying to understand other cultures is hard work. Trying to help others understand different cultures is nobel work.

With respect:

It is common mistake that muslims dont respect bible, or christians. Quite contrary. They respect both jewish and christians.

Is it not a capital offense in some Muslim countries to attempt to convert persons to any other religion, including Christianity?

The jewish people have lived together with muslims for long time and they were respected aswell.

Truly, many European Jews fled to the Muslim countries to escape Christian intolerance in the Middle Ages. But "were" seems accurate.

Any historian tells you that religious intolerance was brought into near and middle east by christians and first during crusades.

The Phillistines would disagree. Intolerance -- fear and hatred of the "different" -- seems part of the human condition. Muslims are not immune from it, as you suggest.

Read your history books first and learn to understand, that world DOESNT LOOK as you are told.

History being written by men with all their prejudices, can often be inacurate. We are "told" by our government, over and over and over again, that not all Muslims are our enemies and that the terrorists are a small minority.
. . .

On the other side US christian church is sectarian with all the branches which doesnt help understanding what is what.

On the other hand, Islam is sectarian which does not help understanding of what is what. The average person does not distinguish between Sunni, Shia, Druse, Sifis, etc.

Black and white understanding of world picture is even more common amongst todays US citizens, at least judging reactions of many people, than amongst todays muslims and that starting with the head of your state.
Its surelly soft job to let anybody else tell you who s your ENEMY and let him also tell you what to do at any situation.

You give too much credit to the average person in the West or the Muslim countries; many lack any "world picture." But 9/11 was a pretty clear communication from some Muslims, if we can distinguish who they are. Do they include the mobs dancing in the street with joy over the dead?
. . .

urning the flag is proper disposal of it. I have been tought this in the school. When somebody burns it he wants to dispose of it. Much worse it have been e.g. to stretch it on the ground and let the people walk over it - this is desecration of flag. I dont doubt that burning U.S. flag in the muslim states has symbolic meaning, but surelly ENEMY must be identified by muslims as is by U.S.

Burning a flag -- with due ceremony and respect -- is proper disposal. Burning it while chanting "Death to the Great Satan" is a political statement.

Contrary burning any book I would consider simply stupid and bigot, and the coparission with german nazis who did this is on the right place. Identification of any absolutistic state starts with public burning of certain books. This happens in U.S. all the time starting with schooll textbooks concerning evolutionism.

"[A]ll the time"? Have you been in the U.S.? If so, have you attended any book burnings? Have you seen TV, newspaper, blog, or magazine coverage of book burnings?

I fear we are all, to one extent or another, prisoners of our experiences.

 

[45-70]

It is common mistake that muslims dont respect bible, or christians.
Quite contrary. They respect both jewish and christians.
The jewish people have lived together with muslims for long time and they were respected aswell.
Any historian tells you that religious intolerance was brought into near and middle east by christians and first during crusades.

How about the Taliban blowing up those buddhist statues? Is that a statement of religious tolerence? or because they aren't people of the book?

I was refering to actions inside my own country, not being taken inside another.

Where are you from Hawkwind, tell us about yourself.

 

[jurassicnarc44]

Just a guess based on sentence structure, but I believe friend Hawkwind may be German, or possibly ? Swedish? Good folks, but they see things in a slightly different light.

Jim, your own 'Public profile' doesn't give a location either :footinmou

 

[Yvsa]

Where are you from Hawkwind, tell us about yourself.

Hawkwind is a super talented and valued member of the Cantina as are all the regulars. Don't let things get personal.

 

[hawkwind]

I m Czech.

I havent been in U.S. I wanted to go last year to MOJAM (missouri ozark bow jamboree), but surelly you dont think that I will travel into country which requires my fingerprints to be taken before I even step into the plane, wilingly?

The religious intolerance in bible - the philistines and wars pictured in old testament refers to era when asyrian king Sargon II. invaded lands on Jordan. Under this presure a strong military and politic group formed between the jewish called Deuteronomists (later pharizean) and I dont fear to call these people nationalist - they were quite radical. They formed real resistance and eventually first wrote what is today old testament. They reworked the entire concept, in the originall material, the jewish should never cross the Jordan (wasnt allowed), but new reworked stuff was written more as politicall pamflet reasoning invasion over Jordan.
Hence these wars have been teritorial, not religious. The religion have been used eventually as a tool for uniting the tribes.

............................... "[A]ll the time"? Have you been in the U.S.? If so, have you attended any book burnings? Have you seen TV, newspaper, blog, or magazine coverage of book burnings?.......................

Burning darwinist school textbooks occured more than once, more than on one place. Teaching about evolution isnt alowed in some states in US for religious reasons. Would you deny this?

.............. Is it not a capital offense in some Muslim countries to attempt to convert persons to any other religion, including Christianity?...............................

Attempting to convert person of any religion to another can be taken offensive by anyone. I m sure that average catholic will be also offended when asked to convert to islam on site. I m reffering about fact that these people accept christian or jewish as person but never do that with an atheist.



Sects - there is more than 2 islam sects, but 2 are main of them. I cant count all the branches of christian church existing only in U.S. but it goes perhaps to hundred(s)? - Speak about confusion.

............................History being written by men with all their prejudices, can often be inacurate. ................................

- Correct, which can gives us pretty picture of men and society who wrote them.


Terorists atacks on US were by means politicall acts, the religion was misused to get the poor sods in the planes to do what they did.

Somebody here identificies Sadam as a representative of islam, which is in this simple case of absolutistic ruler not correct. (Different case with Ajatolah Chomejni) Examples of military supported absolutistic rulers are to be found all over the world, in south america being it quite customary and in Russia nothing else being possible.

Identification Sadam with 9/11 is also incorect, as he wasnt supporting al kajda or Bin Ladin - he was even on their killing list. He was representative of regime supporting terrorism, that I would not deny, but invasion to Iraq was reasoned by informations which were not correct.

You are right about being prisoners of our own experiences.

 

[Kismet]

What's the difference between religion and politics?



















Most often, the spelling.

 

[jurassicnarc44]

I m Czech.

Burning darwinist school textbooks occured more than once, more than on one place. Teaching about evolution isnt alowed in some states in US for religious reasons. Would you deny this?

Friend Hawkwind, I teach molecular biology and botany at the high school level. Each year I spend perhaps a total of ten days teaching evolution as one of the unifying themes that ties all of the study of life together. Each year I have some religious fundamentalists, who would prefer that I not teach it (and are fairly vocal about it). It is true that a few communities have tried to bar these ideas from our our schools here in the United States, but they are so rare that when they complain, it makes the news. The courts have repeatedly found that the teaching of evolution in biology is sound practice. You only hear of the exceptions, and then only until the courts find against them again. Rest assured that evolution is included in our texts, and that millions of kids learn it each year. What they choose to believe after that is up to them...n'est pas?

Please plan to visit when you do come to the United States....the door is open

 

[jurassicnarc44]

Friend Hawkwind, do you get most of your political information from Czech newspapers and television, German, BBC, CNN, or where? I'm suprised that you seem not to draw a distinction between my Bible, which requires me to pray for my enemies, and the Quran and it's interpretive books, which require them to kill or convert infidels like me. In my earlier career in drug law enforcement, I traveled to 42 foreign countries including Turkey, Lebanon and Iran among others and never had difficulty working, eating and sleeping with people whose customs were very different from my own. I do believe that many people in the Middle East respect us and want to work together for everyone's good. I also believe that there are many extremists who would prefer that we never get together...that democracy and the collective will of the people is dangerous to people in power. The violent few want to intimidate all the others into following their narrow interpretation of how things should go. I look forward to a day when all mankind gets an even break....not through communism or by religious fundamentalism, but by working together. Don't be too quick to criticize; we all make mistakes.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I'm afraid many of the controversies in this thread go back to the dificulty of interpreting a religion or society by the acts of a few of its members.

What IS Islam, Christianity, or Judaism? ONLY its history, ONLY its holy texts, ONLY its theology, ONLY its current belief and actions, ONLY its loudest voices? Obviously, each is complex beyond simple discussion.

Why we seem to be held to a higher standard is an artifact of our point of view. In Muslim countries they constantly decry the West blaming them for the actions of a few fanatics. We also misunderstand complaints against us -- fighting during Ramadan, disrespecting the Quran. In fact, Muslims themselves have always fought during Ramadan, and the worst instances of disrespect for the Quran at Guantanamo were by the prisoners, who are, after all, mostly barbarians, and psychologically stressed, besides.

The flag-burning and politicized criticism of the US is most often carefully orchestrated partisan propaganda. Believe it, worry about it, about as much as you trust the promises and platform of any politician or his bandwagon.

By the way, the reason roughedges gets to put in 18¢ more is that "18" is a Hebrew codeword for "life" and is a sign of respect for the context in which it's used.

 

[roughedges]

EB: l'chaim!

 

[ddean]

............
I'm afraid many of the controversies in this thread go back to
the dificulty of
interpreting
a religion or society
by the acts of
a few of its members.

What IS Islam, Christianity, or Judaism?
ONLY its history, ONLY its holy texts, ONLY its theology, ONLY its current belief and actions, ONLY its loudest voices
? ...............

Rusty started a thread a while back
sorta related
my post there:
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2871746&postcount=5



~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<> THEY call me 'Dean' -fYI-fWiW-iIRC-JMO-M2C-YMMV-TiA-YW-GL-HH-HBd-IBSCUtWS-theWotBGUaDUaDUaD
<> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links --A--T--H--D

 

[Esav Benyamin]

my post there:
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2871746&postcount=5

Exactly.

There is an Italian imam who has published a Quranic justification for the Land of Israel having been given to the Jews.

There are Muslims who have risked their lives opposing extremism. I've posted before about Emad Salem, who infiltrated and exposed the World Trade Center bombers in 1993. He wasn't even an American.

We are undergoing a clash of civilizations, but the fight is not between Islam and the West, it is a continuation of the war between totalitarianism and freedom that overwhelmed the Twentieth Century.

Unfortunately, most Muslim societies haven't realized this yet, and are being mercilessly manipulated and brutalized by their own worst elements.

 

[jurassicnarc44]

Thank you, Friend Esav, for valuable input. I've been in and out of Southwest Asia for the last thirtyfive years, and I'm still trying to understand the differences between the various sects. Personaly, I find it much easier just to meet individuals, and treat them as though we lived just across the street.....it works for me.

 

[FallingKnife]

I'm afraid many of the controversies in this thread go back to the dificulty of interpreting a religion or society by the acts of a few of its members.

(Chuckle.) Through an odd sequence of events, I was the only American sharing an apartment with a couple of Jewish guys and an Islamic guy (he was also pro-Khomeini/Chomejni). You'd think that this was a recipe for disaster, but it really wasn't.

There were problems, to be sure, but it was the normal college-student junk like splitting up the phone bill, doing dishes, etc. If only the rest of the world had such problems.

 

[Tohatchi NM]

Hawkwind - the fingerprinting, and lots of other American policies relating to other countries, bug me alot. Fortunately, as a citizen I'm not subject to them (yet?) but I'm sure small annoyances like having to run around airports in your socks will only lead to major imposiitions down the road.

As for Muslims, I haven't personally met a bad one. I've run into various flavors of Christians who I would consider much more annoying and potentially dangerous. Then again, I've never visited a Muslim state and I don't hang out with jihadists, so my sample is a bit skewed. Never the less, I don't think you can judge all Muslims by something like 9/11 just like you can't judge all Christians by incidents like the Waco siege (was Koresh Christian? even if not, I'm sure the fact that he was American would be close enough for some outside observers), abortion clinic bombings, or even the ongoing dispute over evolution. I know the Bible decently well, nearly nothing about the Quran, but it seems like you can select and distort pieces of just about anything to support a violent, extremist agenda.

Back to the original topic of flag burning vs. book burning - I think the answer lies in a bit of judicial hair-splitting. Context matters very much. In some contexts both would be OK, while in others neither would be OK. I haven't looked at the Supreme Court cases lately, but in general threats and incitement to violence are not protected forms of speech. So you can burn a cross, but you can't burn it in black person's yard. (this was an actual case - St. Louis, I believe). So protesters on the steps of the Capitol can burn a flag - not so threatening to go to the center of government power. But if you went to, say, a general's or soldier's home and burned a flag, perhaps it would be a threat. If you built an organization that frequently advertized it's hosility to the military, advocated assasinating soldiers, and burned flags at all your meetings, it would definitely be a threat.

Burning a Torah would also be commonly viewed as a hate crime - given a long history of anti-sematism, along with the value and symoblism of the object itself. Under this standard, many flag-burning events in US-hostile countries might also be seen as incitement to violence, hence illegal under our laws.

The flag is a great symbol - I don't think burning it is right, but I also don't think it should be a sacred cow that is put on such a high pedestal that nobody can see it. In a twisted bit of logic, I think people should be (legally if not morally) allowed to desecrate the flag, so we can continue to discuss why their actions are wrong. People who appreciate the flat should come together to defend it and remind ourselves why it should be defended. FWIW, I would much rather see a law that enforces good flag ettiquette than an anti flag-burning amendment. That is, you can't put the flag on clothing or sports uniforms, disposable items such as cocktail napkins, etc. etc. At least flag-burners recognize the flag as a powerful symbol. Imprinting the flag on a beer-soaked napkin or sweat-soaked t-shirt turns it into a commodity that gets tossed in the trash at the end of the day.

Last little bit - I think the "peeing on the Quran" story at Guantanamo was pure BS. Some guard pissed next to an air vent and some spray happened to get sucked in and land on the book. So he gets reassigned. This guy has to have the worst luck in the universe. Not to discount the other stories of desecration, or to suggest that respecting the Quran isn't important, but it was a pure accident. I'm sure much worse accidents have happened to Qurans in the care of great religious leaders. This just happened in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Rant off.

 

[DannyinJapan]

This is a little OT, but not really, not in the long and deep of it.

You know, I never had any idea how much time, money and effort countries like Japan spend every year trying to convince their own people that they havea good life in Japan and how bad it is in America and why they wouldnt want to live there.
At first, I thought it was just Japan.
Since I've met so many Europeans over here, Im starting to see that other countries do this as well.
Australia, Sweden, England do it. (Those are the ones I personally know of)
I suspect many many more do so.
They have this " Keep our people from emigrating to America" budget.
If EVERY country did this, I wouldnt mind.
That's the thing, THEY think we all do.
They dont believe that America doesnt also do this.
They have no idea that Americans are constantly reminded how smart Asians are, how pretty Switzerland is, how beautiful Italy is, etc...
We have all seen the films of emigrants at Ellis island, right?
Did you ever think what their homeland governments were thinking?
Did you ever wonder what they thought they should do ?
Well, now you know.

 

[munk]

I can't imagine why Hawkwind was waiting for my input. I'm on vacation, Hawkwind, please don't make me come back!

Anything I might have said was done better by Thomas and Esav. I'm only reading this thread at the suggestion of a friend. You know what? This thread was handled well. The good folks came through and it did not get destructive.

I congratulate you all. Something I learned about Hawkwind, btw, is that he is sincere in his questions and has a desire to listen to others. The language differences and net medium make this hard for all of us.


munk