someone is going to get SUED

Originally posted by tom mayo
infringement of trademark, registered design, patent aside....I think the manufacturer had a pretty innovative idea - utilise the best of all worlds...


Sir: I am not trying to start a flame war, or get down on you, but SERIOUSLY-How can you think that ripping off other peoples ideas and putting them in your product is innovative. Its simply stealing!! :(
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That's certainly something to consider, Tom.

Then again, if you asked a devout capitalist, like Milton Friedman, he'd say that's free enterprise and it promotes competition.

But politics aside, let's look at another side to that by keeping in mind that so-called "legit" companies from places other than third world countries borrow intellectual property as well. Example: REKAT rolling vs. Benchmade Axis vs. SOG arc. Sure you could cite banal differences like "one is an arc and the other is straight". But let's be honest here, all copyrights aside, it doesn't take a genius or a knife knut to see that they function pretty much the same. Ergo, someone "borrowed" someone else's idea. Another example: What company DOESN'T have a pocket clip on their knife these days? Yet somebody thought of it first, right?

And who hasn't noticed that the old Benchmade Pinnacle looked an awful lot like the Sebenza? And I doubt Chris Reeve got a cent. Some M.O.D. knives look like Microtech clones. And does anyone for a minute believe that SOG independently thought up of bolt-action style locks and spring assisted blades when other companies had similar ideas first? You could go on and on...

All I'm saying is that we would be hypocrites to shake a fist at these knives made by foreign peasants working for 10cents an hour, while all the while there is plenty of "idea borrowing" going on here at home.

Besides, we as a high-end knife market segment aren't going to be buying those cheap knives. Conversely, the people who would (who obviously don't know squat about knife quality) are not going to be dropping $200 on an Emerson. So what? Well, that means that it's a bigger threat to, say, Benchmade's marketshare if another high end company comes out with an Axis-like lock, rather than some small factory in India making knock-offs.

Just something else to consider.

FTC

P.S. For all my long-winded ranting and raving, the truth is that I'll buy a knife based on my own personal preferences and how it suits my needs irregardless of who thought of what first.
 
P.S. Gollnick, you look like this guy I went to highschool with. Did you go to H.S. in Colorado by any chance?
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Nope. Sorry.

I'm bigger in real life than I look in my avatar
:D
 
FTC, bad examples for the most part. The Rolling lock is not the same principle as the other locks. While the Pinnacle does use a frame lock, it does not look like a Sebenza. And MOD knives do not look like Microtech clones. Similar IS NOT the same thing as an outright knock-off like many of the examples posted here.
 
OK, Bottom line.........

There is not much that can be done to stop the production of rip offs. As mentioned above, it's just too profitable for these countries. As far as the knives themselves, I have to think that MOST of the poeple that buy them no very little about knives anyway. Would you trust the lock on a $20 knife??? Along with that, MOST of the buyers have no idea what the knives are based on, who the original designers are, patents, etc., etc. What bothers me most is the fact that the internet sites that are selling this CRAP, KNOW what's going on. They are the middle men that will do anything for a $$$ and the major ROOT of the problem.

I think a topic like this is good as well as educational for new members. I'd like to see more "THE LATEST POS COPY" or "RIP OFF PICS and LINKS"!!!! :D As knife enthusiasts, lets do our best to EDUCATE!!!


Neil
 
Neil, that was an extremely upsetting website. It bums me out big time. And I know the purveyor, he used to be right here in Amherst but has now moved to the eastern part of MA.

Your Skirmish will be up there next along with Striders and TNTs. :mad: :mad: :(
 
Peter,

Someone could really get hurt with a half assed rendition of the Skirmish :eek: LOL!!! The way the world is today, they would probably try to SUE ME as the original designer!! LOL!!!!!!

As you can imagine, seeing them made in china would piss me off. Seeing them on a website, here in the USA would REALLY make me :barf: :grumpy:

You better be carefull of your Prybaby too. It could be in their crosshairs right now :D FRIGGIN BASTIDS !!!



Neil
 
Originally posted by Dr.Lathe
The way the world is today, they would probably try to SUE ME as the original designer!! LOL!!!!!!
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Don't laugh...I bet it could happen!!!!

Speaking of suing you...I want a Skirmish but I can't have one now...I'm thinking of suing you for "mental anguish"...I will accept a free Max Melee as an "out of court settlement" though...

RL
 
RL,

OK, in that case, I'm suing sever makers myself. Maybe Ken will settle for one of his Mid Techs ;)

I'm actually making some progress now that I've caught up on most of my fixed blades.

Neil
 
I didnt read every response to this post so If I repeat I apologize but suing for copyright infringment is almost impossible to do. I have a patent on a product that I invented. (non knife related so I wont bore you) anyway after one year of sales my design and product was "knocked off" in the most sickening it was a exact copy of the design but the materials were by far cheaper. I immediatly filed an injunction against the manufacturer and a suit... unfortunatly injunctions are easy things to dodge around and law suits are expensive...sigh so much for the gravy train....

Ren
 
Consider this:

On top of the many legitimately manufactured products made in China, many countries are having their products manufactured in china and then shipped to other countries, pay local import duties, package and ship to the US and stamped made in "some other country other than china". Soooo, you can't get away from chinese made products. Not possible.

But fear not, I have been doing business with the chinese for a few years and have a more current viewpoint of the situation.

China is moving away from the BS cheap $hit that they usually manufacture. the main reason is that a lot of legitimate business is using the Chines labor force for their main production line. As a consequence, when the same companies allocate some of the output for local consumption, they rebrand it under a local name. Consequently, you will find Nike sneakers and Oakley products sold domestically in china under a local brand. If you ever saw this, you might immediately accuse the brand of being a knockoff. To your surprise, you will find this product to be the same quality as the popular name brand at 1/4 the cost. The savings is gained from the lack of transport, storage, and marketing.

As for the manufacturers that are hell-bent on copying existing goods exactly (imitations), China is currently cleaning house. Alot of the people executed every year are guilty of manufacturing and distributing this stuff (includes, all high-end watchs, and leather goods). With computer technology, labeling and packaging can be imitated exactly. This one is the kicker, you can't even buy a bottle of French booze in china, it's a knock off.

When I was in China, the knockoff markets were constantly raided by local cops. It was really difficult to score some good knockoffs. However, the border patrol really don't care about leaving with that stuff.

China's original export model is an antiquated communist model. It doesn't work and 80% of the officials are corrupt. China knows this and has an aggressive plan to reform the borders by the end of the 2050. These guys are systematically eliminating 5% of the border guards year after year. They are serious about reform, but they also learned by watching the Russians about what happens when you reform too quickly.

The executions are a different political argument until itself, which I will not go into.

As far as the cheap knives are concerned, I don't think there is a large problem. Most people, even non-knife-knuts will not go near these knives. You average citizen does not buy and carry the kind of knives that BF members do. Most will buy razors and box cutters before investing in a cheap knife. As for those that do buy the cheapy knives ( I was one of them when I had no cash), they learn their lesson and eventually break or throw all that junk away.

But make no mistake, US business want to be in the China, and that is why things are the way they are. Right now, DELL has the largest plant in China. They have the largest, fastest growing economy in the world. In an global economic climate where every country seems to be doing poorly, the Chinese economy is growing at a rate of 30% annually. Most of china is still rural but not for long.
 
Originally posted by poboy
FTC, bad examples for the most part. The Rolling lock is not the same principle as the other locks. While the Pinnacle does use a frame lock, it does not look like a Sebenza. And MOD knives do not look like Microtech clones. Similar IS NOT the same thing as an outright knock-off like many of the examples posted here.
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Well that's fair enough, poboy. I'll concede to you that the rolling lock (I own a SIFU) works differently from the Axis (I also own a 710) in that the pin on an Axis slides back and forth, whereas the rolling lock pivots in place. Sorry for the overgeneralization, Brothers and Taylor, whereever you may be now (p.s. REKAT COME BACK!).

But c'mon, you have to admit that the arc lock (I've played with a Vision) is pretty darn close to an Axis lock. Then again, you bring up the dilemma that it's how you look at it. You are looking for differences in those examples, while I point out similarities. That's what they would do when trying to determine copyright and patent infringements.

Also, perhaps I should have pointed that I was speaking strictly from an ethical POV.

As they warned us in university, "just because it isn't word for word doesn't necessarily excuse plagiarism. It's the content, not the form." This means that they don't have to be the exact same. Merely, too much similarity would constitute plagiarism.

From a philosophical point of view you could argue the same with industrial design. Legally speaking, it may have been altered enough to avoid copyright infringement, but ethically speaking a rip off is a rip off no matter how much you try to disguise it.

Once again, I'm speaking strictly from a philosophical/moral/ethcial POV and my opinion; not a legal one (i.e. copyright and patents).

As I said, I really don't care. I'll buy a knife as long as it's good. Hopefully, it encourages competition amongst the knife makers and we all get a better product at the end. My point is that one company "borrows" from another no matter whether they are third world "knock off" plants, or our favorite U.S. brands.

FTC

BTW, if you don't think the Sebenza and Pinnacle (I own the latter) look similar (*Note I said "similar" not "same"), then I admit you got a better eye for detail than I do!
 
it is almost impossible to stop the production of "rip-off" knives overseas in countries that are friendly to the US ... much less in unfriendly countries like china

it takes Americans to assist in the design of these knives ... as well as to import, distribute, and sell them.

many of the sellers of "rip-off knives" also sell many legitimate products.

keeping that in mind when deciding where to buy a legitimate product will be helpful in fighting the theft of intellectual property ...
 
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