Something is bothering me: 420HC vs 12C27M

Flatlander1963

Flatlander1963

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Well guys as we know Buck's intermediate lines are moving from 154cm to Sandvik 12C27M for the most part. 13C26 is being used as well (and its great) but the 12C27M seems to be the choice for the majority of the Avid/intermediate lines.

Sometime last year I asked a similar question but it was about 154cm and 12C27M and I didn't feel satisified with the thread. Nobody really had much time to form opinions about the Sandvik steel. So the thread had minimal debate and no strong opinions emerged.

Now I have sitting here on my desk two Ergo Hunter Fixed blades with rosewood handles and one has a 420HC (a build out I think) and a recent Cabela's purches in 12C27M. Which by the way is my first in that steel.

What happened is it got me thinking about 420HC verses 12C27M. Frankly I'm fairly impressed with Latrobe's 420HC with its bits of extra materials (moly I think) that make it a better edge hold steel than your standard 420s. And Bos of course.

So as I sit here and look at two Ergo Hunter Fixed blades that look identical but for the two steels.....It makes me wonder if Sandvik 12C27M is really a higher grade of steel vs 420HC as a practical matter or is it just different and less costly in the manufacturing process (vs 154cm).

Notice I said as a practical matter! Well all comments from appreciated. g
 
I hope some good comments come out of this g because I have wondered the same thing. I have yet to get a 12c27m.
 
I'm thinking that THEY'RE thinking that customers wouldn't stand for the substitution of 420HC for 154CM, but the 12C27M will snow them.

From what I've read, the 12C27M and the 420HC are similar and both excellent steels with the BOS heat treat.

If I were forced to choose a knife for a survival adventure I'd take either of them over S30V because I'd trust them over S30V to take on the toughest tasks without some sort of edge failure.
 
I would love to talk steel, But I really don't know much about the usability of the different steels. I use and love the old 300 series knives. I think (don't know for sure) that they had 440c steel and they work just fine for my every day use. I enjoy using my knife till it dulls and I enjoy walking over to my 3 stone sharpening rig and putting an edge back on the knife I love. I do this maybe once every month or two. i think people try to wrap there brains around steel usability a little too much. This doesn't mean that people don't know what they are talking about, but does it matter if you get 1500 cuts of rope as apposed to 1350 before you have to put an edge back on your knife. It ain't changing the EDC in my pocket.
 
I recently bought several Alpha Dorado's for myself and others for XMas with the 13C26 Sandvik Steel, and everyone has been very impressed with the sharpness. Also holds an edge good, and good durable. What's not to like.

Also have a Dorado in 154CM and have never been able to get it near as sharp as the 13C26. Buck is transitioning away from 154CM, probably because the supplier is unreliable due to bankruptcy. If Buck can save a few dollars in the process, good for them. However, quality has not been compromised IMO.
 
http://www.smt.sandvik.com/sandvik/...94EE51D2484D2245C1257816000F6FDF?OpenDocument
Sandvik 12C27M is a martensitic stainless chromium steel developed for kitchen tools with high demands on wear and corrosion resistance.

# After heat treatment the grade is characterised by: High hardness
# Good wear resistance
# Good corrosion resistance

Sandvik 12C27M is mainly used for kitchen tools, such as different types of knives and scissors, that need to tolerate dishwashers.
Click to expand...

Composition comparison
_________C____Si____Mn____Pmax.___Smax_____Cr_____Mo____V
12C27M__0.52__0.4___0.6____0.025____0.010____14.5____-_____-
420HC___0.46__0.4___0.40____________________13.0____-_____0.3

http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/LSS_420_HC.pdf

If I had to guess at the performance difference based on the composition data above, I would guess that there would not be much difference except maybe slightly improved corrosion resistance. However, there may be other differences that are not apparent in the composition above. Sandvik steel is known to have a low level of impurities. Impurities lead to lower performance.

As far as hardness goes, Sandvik gives heat treat schedules to produce 59HRC blades:
http://www.smt.sandvik.com/sandvik/...d2c7d0d4abd85f73c12574390050a56f?opendocument

That's already higher in hardness than the current Buck spec for 450HC (58HRC) and that's BEFORE Paul Bos applied HIS knowledge. God only knows what hardness he could get the stuff to. I don't know what the Buck Spec is for 12C27M.

Bottom line: BTSOOM if there is an actual performance difference between 420HC and 12C27M.:D

But I for sure would not consider it comparable in edge retention to 154CM, though 12C27M does get sharper because it does not form carbides.
 
Well it seems Sandvik steel is still pretty much a mystery to us Buckeroos or at least 12C27M.

I was hoping someone from Buck would share the add'l benefits of 12C27M over 420HC. I'm thinking specifically about the boning knife. Same handle, same everthing I think except for the steel. $70 vs $90 on the website. That's about a 29% upcharge...so I'm naturally curious what the add'l benefits are of the Sandvik????

I guess I'm with Frank's comment at the moment:
knarfeng said:
Bottom line: BTSOOM if there is an actual performance difference between 420HC and 12C27M.:D
Click to expand...
 
I never gave 12C27 much more than a passing glance because its not that impressive looking on paper. In use however it does surprise. I've been using it at 60 Rockwell on some of my folding knives using .100 thickness stock and the feedback I've received has not been negative. In fact people like it a lot and say it just flat out works. Using it allowed me to sell knives I'd normally ask $325 for for around $275 and I see nothing at all the matter with that in this economy. I've found in my own uses that it does indeed perform well and sharpen up very easy even in the field, and it seems to offer fairly good corrosion resistance. It seems to be quite capable too and you can still have a fairly tough blade even when done thin for the grind so to me its a good choice and certainly worthy of serious review. I think folks will be surprised at how well it actually does and when combined with Buck's edge and grind geometry I believe it will be receiving some praise.

Some of the "Nordic" knives have been showing up for some time using this steel. Generally speaking the peoples from this part of the world are known for making some real world user knives and they don't really mess with something unless it does indeed work. Some of the serious outdoorsman are using 12C27 blades and many of the small exceptionally well done Bushcrafter knives and other true sportsman knives are made from this steel, with Mora being one of them. I don't see it as a drawback that Buck has moved to this excellent very clean steel.

STR
 
STR said:
I never gave 12C27 much more than a passing glance because its not that impressive looking on paper. In use however it does surprise. I've been using it at 60 Rockwell on some of my folding knives using .100 thickness stock and the feedback I've received has not been negative. In fact people like it a lot and say it just flat out works. Using it allowed me to sell knives I'd normally ask $325 for for around $275 and I see nothing at all the matter with that in this economy. I've found in my own uses that it does indeed perform well and sharpen up very easy even in the field, and it seems to offer fairly good corrosion resistance. It seems to be quite capable too and you can still have a fairly tough blade even when done thin for the grind so to me its a good choice and certainly worthy of serious review. I think folks will be surprised at how well it actually does and when combined with Buck's edge and grind geometry I believe it will be receiving some praise.

Some of the "Nordic" knives have been showing up for some time using this steel. Generally speaking the peoples from this part of the world are known for making some real world user knives and they don't really mess with something unless it does indeed work. Some of the serious outdoorsman are using 12C27 blades and many of the small exceptionally well done Bushcrafter knives and other true sportsman knives are made from this steel, with Mora being one of them. I don't see it as a drawback that Buck has moved to this excellent very clean steel.

STR
Click to expand...

Very informative, STR.

Where does this steel come from -- and why is it cheaper than the alternatives?
 
flash900 said:
Very informative, STR.

Where does this steel come from -- and why is it cheaper than the alternatives?
Click to expand...

When I bought the 12C I'm using I bought .100 thickness which was appealing to me in its own right at the time for the folders I wanted to use it in, but S30V was so hard to find at the time that a lot of the makers using that steel or wanting it were buying up other steels that were usually readily available. This was when Crucible was going under and a lot of the makers were buying up the ATS34 I normally used. So when I went to order some I was unable to find the ATS at the time for a price I wanted to pay and for that matter it was hard for a while for me to track down some other steels I wanted or would settle for or in the quantity I needed. The 12C was offered to me and I was happy with the price.

I was hesitant at first but its a very good steel that wears well and seems to me to hold an edge much better than you'd expect from what you see on paper. At 60 Rockwell I really like it a lot and have had no regrets using it. I'm not sure exactly what all ties together with this steel to enable it to perform as it does. It has few impurities and the quality control in making it is supposed to be second to none so maybe that has something to do with it. All I know is what I see in use and hear from my own customers and that indicates that the apex of the cutting edge stays true for a lot longer than people expected for such a simple steel.

Sandvik is based in Sweden but they have offices all over the world including the USA. They are known for razor blades since they make the steel used in many of them world wide apparently.

STR
 
Steve are you talking about 12C27 or 12C27M which (along with 13C26) is the Sandvik steel Buck is using on a lot of the Avid lines?

Nice write up in any case. I had some superb 12C27 knives I order special out of South Africa from Arno Bernard Jr. but never used them as they were to beautiful.
 
Flatlander1963 said:
Steve are you talking about 12C27 or 12C27M which (along with 13C26) is the Sandvik steel Buck is using on a lot of the Avid lines?

Nice write up in any case. I had some superb 12C27 knives I order special out of South Africa from Arno Bernard Jr. but never used them as they were to beautiful.
Click to expand...

Mine is not the M version no. The M version is actually one with a higher corrosion resistance considered to be 'dishwasher' safe while still offering all the other benefits of what I have been using in the regular 12C27 steel. The 12C27M has more chromium with only slightly less manganese and slightly less carbon. Otherwise its still going to be an exceptionally simple and clean steel. From a makers stand point I've found that not only is the steel less to purchase but its also a snap to clean up right out of the heat treat oven because in all honesty compared to ATS34 the 12C27 I have been using is night and day difference in getting it to that presentable stage for selling. Its so much less work to get to the finish line compared to ATS34 that I'll be hard pressed to ever go back to ATS after using this Sandvik steel. That can equate to less time, which can equal more knives per day and so on just from the finish time difference. At least thats been the case for me.

STR
 
STR said:
Mine is not the M version no. The M version is actually one with a higher corrosion resistance considered to be 'dishwasher' safe while still offering all the other benefits of what I have been using in the regular 12C27 steel. The 12C27M has more chromium with only slightly less manganese and slightly less carbon. Otherwise its still going to be an exceptionally simple and clean steel. From a makers stand point I've found that not only is the steel less to purchase but its also a snap to clean up right out of the heat treat oven because in all honesty compared to ATS34 the 12C27 I have been using is night and day difference in getting it to that presentable stage for selling. Its so much less work to get to the finish line compared to ATS34 that I'll be hard pressed to ever go back to ATS after using this Sandvik steel. That can equate to less time, which can equal more knives per day and so on just from the finish time difference. At least thats been the case for me.

STR
Click to expand...

How does 13C26 compare with the 12C27 series? More or less corrosion resistant?
 
flash900 said:
How does 13C26 compare with the 12C27 series? More or less corrosion resistant?
Click to expand...

Less corrosion resistance with 13C26 but you it can get it a little bit harder if you want although 12C27 can be taken to 61 RC if one wanted to do it so the difference is nil. Generally speaking they are close to each other but 12C is tougher and more resistant to spotting and rust.

STR
 
Steve,

You didn't give an opinion of 12C verses Buck's (Latrobe) 420HC. I know you probably haven't spent any time using and rating Buck's HT on their 12C27M but based on your experience with 12C do you have some comments about comparability?
 
The 154CM wasn't in this past year's catalog as a used blade steel. The prior year, 2009, is the only one that had the CPM154 even listed. I've not seen a 154CM Buck blade, but I have a few (005RWS, BP110, special 192) in CPM154. Where does that variant stand - and what happened to it as a choice? Apparently, the BP110 is still being made for Bass Pro.

I do have some 154CM - Benchmades! Also have 12C27 - Boker Plus (PRC) line. They seem fine enough - at least as long lasting an edge as 420HC, if not as easily made as razor sharp as that steel. The more the new numbers & letters spin by, the more I seem to appreciate Buck's venerable 420HC. Of course, a premium knife needs an upgrade steel - if nothing more than for bragging rites. I have had great experience with S30V, my only chipped edge (Spydie Native) came when I tried to deburr a small hole. It would have broken any other tip - and was foolish, as the deburring tool was in a nearby drawer. Cutting uses have been fine. Still, the 420HC seems to take on a finer edge - and certainly, faster, at that.

What was 154CM regularly offered in, Buck knife-wise?

Stainz
 
Flatlander1963 said:
Steve,

You didn't give an opinion of 12C verses Buck's (Latrobe) 420HC. I know you probably haven't spent any time using and rating Buck's HT on their 12C27M but based on your experience with 12C do you have some comments about comparability?
Click to expand...

Honestly I've not compared them side by side but truth be told I've not had any issues or complaints about the 420HC Buck has used for years either. Listen I'm going to go off now and say something that may cause a stir with some but we all know from using a good 110 what they can do in the right hands. There is an old saying that blade geometry cuts and all else is secondary to a good blade done by someone that knows what works. I have owned and still own many blades from various companies and individuals in the industry done with some of the best super steels money can offer that simply will not out cut or even begin to keep up with a $30 Kabar bought Buck 110. I'm speaking of in the field in actual 'real use' on small game or some other task one routinely uses a knife for. Yeah the Buck is technically not as good a steel yet somehow it out shines many of these others that are not only more money but supposed to be superior and it can only be due to a superior grind and edge put on the blade by Buck which offers less perceived effort when you use it. The Buck may not keep that edge as long as the super steel blade will but if the super steel blade is so fat in primary grind and so obtuse at the apex of the edge that it makes more work for you when you use it because the manufacturer or maker did not really take full advantage of what the steel can be made to do when done to optimum levels what diff does it make what steel it is?

The truth is I'm sure whatever Buck uses will probably be geared toward being used and I think many users prefer knives like Buck and Spyderco just because they gear them for high performance actual cutting tasks and not for looking good in a pocket or display stand.

EDIT: Lets add that as far as comparability goes it is probably true that the 12C can be taken to a thinner grind and still be tougher than the 420HC but I'm not sure which would actually be the more corrosion resistant. I'm guessing 12C there too but I'd have to look up some specs to really know. I've not had issues with either of them for spotting or rust. One of the good things about the 12C27 and 13C26 is just how thin you can actually make a blade for a really great slicer dicer if you really want that. If you were to take 420 than thin I fear the blade would suffer some toughness and strength issues so in that regard its a good choice to move to 12C if you want to do that with your grinds.

STR
 
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Flatlander1963 said:
I was hoping someone from Buck would share the add'l benefits of 12C27M over 420HC. I'm thinking specifically about the boning knife. Same handle, same everthing I think except for the steel.
Click to expand...

I'd forgotten about this thread. A good re-read. Since I did buy the Sandvik Boner and have decided to put it into everyday use in the kitchen, a good test would be to get the 420HC version and do the same. The wife has already used the knife and likes it for food prep so no fussing about buying another knife.
 
I do have both the sandvik and 420hc boners. I need a good opportunity for a head to head competition. I did use one to process a deer. The desigh excells at its intended purpose.
 
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