Something is bothering me: 420HC vs 12C27M

I saw the date of this thread and thought, (" boy how things change). I have had a chance to use the "premium" steels and can now compare them with Bucks 420HC.
S30v in my opinion is a good steel and holds an edge well. It sucks for corrosion resistance, and it's difficult to put an edge back on after you have dulled it.

13c26 is a Better steel in my opinion but the corrosion resistance is still not as good as the 420HC. Some might argue with the last two opinions, but a day on the ocean doesn't lie. As for edge retention and sharpenability, it holds an edge marginally longer than 420Hc, and is easier to sharpen than S30V.

420Hc is the best steel Buck offers, in my opinion. It has great corrosion resistance, it has good edge retention and its easy to sharpen.

CMP154 and 154Cm, I've never used them but like all fads, next week there will be a new one... Kind of like the weather in Texas, if you don't like it, wait a minute, it will change...
 
I guess my opinion based on everything I'm hearing is that the Sandvik and 420HC are similar in key performance measures with the Sandvik being more stain resistent but who can fault 420HC on that issue. I suspect that the Sandvik has a finer grain and takes a sharper edge. Anyway, below is some info I pulled off the web. I do wonder why Latrobe doesn't have any moly.

Sandvik 12C27Mod is a martensitic stainless chromium steel developed for the manufacture of kitchen tools with high wear and corrosion resistance properties. After heat treatment the steel grade is characterized by high hardness with very good wear and corrosion resistance. Sandvik 12C27Mod is used mainly for kitchen tools, such as different types of knives and scissors, which need to tolerate dishwashing.Carbon-0.52%, Manganese-0.60%, Chromium-14.50%

Latrobe Specialty Steel 420HC, a high carbon martensitic stainless steel that exhibits an attainable hardness of 55HRC and good wear resistance. It should be considered for specialty knives, industrial knives, cutlery, scissors, surgical knives, bearings, and other applications that require a combination of corrosion resistance and wear resistance.

Steel Carbon(C)% Manganese(Mn)% Chromium(Cr)% Silica(Si)% Vanadium(V)% Molybdenum(Mo)%

Sandvic 12C27M---(C)%=0.52----------(Mn)%=0.6---(Cr)%=14.5
420HC – Generic---(C)%=0.40-0.50---(Mn)%=0.8---(Cr)%=12.0-14.0---(V)%=0.18---(Mo)%=0.6
LSS 420HC---------(C)%=0.46---------(Mn)%=0.4---(Cr)%=13.0---------(V)%=0.30--------------------(Si)%=0.40
154CM--------------(C)%=1.05---------(Mn)%=0.5---(Cr)%=14.0-------------------------(Mo)%=4.0
CPM-S30V----------(C)%=1.45-------------------------(Cr)%=14.0---------(V)%=4.0-----(Mo)% 2.0

Carbon (C)
- Increases edge retention and raises tensile strength
- Increases hardness and improves resistance to wear and abrasion
Chromium (Cr)
- Increases hardness, tensile strength and toughness
- Provides resistance to wear and corrosion
Manganese (Mn)
- Increases hardenability, wear resistance and tensile strength
- De-oxidizes and de-gasifies to remove oxygen from molten metal
- In larger quantities, increases hardness and brittleness
Molybdenum (Mo)
- Increases strength, hardness, hardenability, and toughness
- Improves machinability and resistance to corrosion
Vanadium (V)
- Increases strength, hardness and resistance to shock impact
- Retards grain growth
 
I understand the chart above and the numbers are what they are but I can tell you from experience and all the numbers in the world can't trump that, the corrosion that built up on my Vantage Pro after 8 hour out fishing on the Pacific Ocean was enough for me to be a firm believer in the numbers are just numbers and can be faulty. This is my experience, and I won't buy a blade made of S30V for anything I plan on using anywhere near the ocean again. My Vantage select with the 420Hc shows no rust spots on it after fishing on the ocean all day. For the extra up charge its not worth it for me... and the Vantage Avid performs very similar to the Pro in ocean water...Why these premium steels perform the way they do, I don't know, but for me they Rust, and I don't want a rusty knife after a day of fishing...
 
Matt,

The Vantage Avid is 12C26 and is the steel they came up with for razorblade production.
Now the 12C27M is focused on stain resistence. Have you tried it around salt water?
 
According to the chart above the 12C27M doesnt have the Moly which is the main component for corrosion resistance, the Manganese has some resistance but it looks like the majority of its properties have to do with strength.
 
I have just been talking to a friend who is a craber who uses a 181 Odyssey with the 12C27M blade and has had no problems.
 
Flatlander1963 said:
Matt,

The Vantage Avid is 12C26 and is the steel they came up with for razorblade production.
Now the 12C27M is focused on stain resistence. Have you tried it around salt water?
Click to expand...

I just bought the Ergo Small Game (Avid) with the 12C27M steel. It wont be long before I put it to the test on the mighty Pacific and I will report back. I hope it holds up.
 
well resercted threads!
i was a fan of the s30v untell it got it near salt water fishing last year
it is still a good steel to use in the woods but really needs a good cleaning ..

i got hold of a sandivict 422 but did not use it as it was a proto type that got away from the factory
so i also would like to get a chance to use the sandivict steel hopefully in a 110!
 
mbjannusch said:
I just bought the Ergo Small Game (Avid) with the 12C27M steel. It wont be long before I put it to the test on the mighty Pacific and I will report back. I hope it holds up.
Click to expand...

Sandvik says they were going for a steel that was dishwasher safe with 12c27M. I guess I translated that to higher stain resistance. I am interested to hear your report of the small Ergo. g
 
mbjannusch said:
CMP154 and 154Cm, I've never used them but like all fads, next week there will be a new one... Kind of like the weather in Texas, if you don't like it, wait a minute, it will change...
Click to expand...

Fads? Since when is 154CM a fad? I really doubt it'll be gone anytime soon, and the same for CPM-154.
 
sticktodrum said:
Fads? Since when is 154CM a fad? I really doubt it'll be gone anytime soon, and the same for CPM-154.
Click to expand...


Well like I said, there will always be a different King of the hill, CMP154 just happens to be the "popular steel" right now. Like 154cm and S30v, D2, BG42, ATS34, 440C they were all the latest and greatest. Now they are sought by collectors because they have been left in the dust. Your prediction isn't very well thought out considering all of these steels have been used in the last 15 years, with the exception of 440C, but itwas the steel of its' day.
 
For those looking for traditional locking hunter knives the way Buck used to make them (in terms of blade steel, anyway), GEC and Canal Street both still use 440C. Reviews in the Traditional sub-forum indicate that GEC is doing a good job with their heat treat.
 
With the Sanvik filling the middle ground in Buck's three tier marketing plan, it may stay around for a few years. The 154-cm steel may not be as trendsical as it has a following in custom knife makers and will remain strong. DM
 
I've been taking an alaskan guide 110 with coated s30v blade out on the atlantic ocean lobster fishing and its held up fine,no rust,but that is the coated version,regular steel blade with no coating might not fare so well..
 
You want an easy answer to 12C27M versus 420HC?...easily explained. Carbon wise both steels are roughly the same in numbers. You're going to get a much harder edge from the Sandvik 12C27M in comparison to 420HC.Sandvik's are purified steels so they go the route of a carbon steel resulting in pretty hard edged steel through heat treatment. So since they aren't soft expect it to hold an edge to different materials and be able take much more. How good they are literally depends on carbon content and who's most efficient in heat treatment. Buck does a great job on Sandvik and I'm not surprised their treatments are about precision.The 12C27M of course isn't as good as old 1095 Carbon Steel but sharpening ease,edge quality, and use? yeah it's just like having a piece of carbon steel except it's rust resistant.No it's not a super stainless and I was confused when Buck threw 12C27M as a super steel replacement but it's a good steel.I grew up on carbon steel and the perspective 'common stainless steels don't hold their edge' rings true...until Sandvik steels started surfacing...very fascinating to use a stainless formulated like a carbon steel...better in many ways. I don't recommend Sandvik for fixed blades though...in hard use they are a little more brittle than carbon steel itself.
 
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