Something New for This Forum

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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There has been a good bit of discussion about what topics are right for Shop Talk, and why registered users can't go into ATG. Spark just created a new sub-forum for this area called Hammer and Tongs. You will see it at the top of the page under Around The Grinder. Post all of the non-knifemaking questions or comments you want there.

Threads that need to be moved because they aren't proper Shop Talk subject matter will now go there. Shop Talk is still about knifemaking skills, the methods used, the materials used, and suppliers and sources for those things. Posting in the new sub-forum will make things smoother, so put your discussion threads there.

If you have a WIP, or a Question about getting started, that is the place for it.

Forum: Hammer & Tongs

Knifemaking Knowledge & Discovery. Share your works in progress, ask questions, and continue the traditions.
 
Adding a new subforum isn't going to generate cool new topics. People come here with cool topics. If those cool topics get swept off into a subforum they will get less trafic and they will languish and die, just like ATG. Why would someone like me or Nick want to expend the time and energy to do a WIP thread if it's going to get swept off into the corner. That would be a problem.

Rather than try to force people to conform to an organization scheme, why not listen to their needs and give them what they want? Shoptalk is a community of people that come here to interact with each other and talk shop. That's the whole point, that's what people want, a place to talk shop. Not to be compartmentalized.

Also, people don't come to the forum to see a first year maker's WIP thread about making knives in their mother's basement. They come here to see the advanced stuff they don't already know. That is the valuable content and that is what drives the volume here. Listen to the people that create that content and give them what they need or that content will go elsewhere. And what will be left?
 
:thumbup::thumbup: Nathan!

The Blade Forums perpetual hammerin would work as a title. Lunch at my last hammerin; this is what shop talk should feel like. I don't know who's talking but its obvious that everyone is listening.

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I agree, Nathan. This new forum isn't going to solve many of the problems, but it is what Spark created, so it is what we have to work with.

Spark created Hammer and Tongs because of the people complaining about not having a place available for some topics that is accessible to all users. I think the new guy WIPs are meant for there. The experienced makers and guys like you who have informative projects to post about should stay in Shop Talk. It is also the off topic threads, like the cave man ADHD thread, and such that will have a place there...where all users can access it.

Lets all give it a try and see how it pans out. My suggestion is that new makers with a "My First Knife" WIP, and those who are trying out new things for the first time should post them in Hammer and Tongs. Those with non-knifemaking subjects or other projects/thoughts/ideas should try to put them in Hammer and Tongs.
Those with well established skills, info of wide interest, or projects and photos of value to the whole community should keep those in Shop Talk.



To reiterate the type of WIP and subject that belongs in each sub-forum:

If the WIP is to share pictures of a project you are working on, and not to teach the skills in the project - Then Hammer and Tongs is the right place. This would be most likely new members working on their first knives or making their first batch of MyCarta.
Threads about subjects of interest to knifemakers, but not directly about knifemaking skills should also go in Hammer and Tongs.
Try and keep the basic new maker questions about your project in Hammer and Tongs. If no one has the answer you need in a few days, then ask it in Shop Talk.

If the WIP is to teach a skill, or demonstrate a skill, or to show advanced workmanship - Then Shop Talk is the place for it.
A newer maker with a serious question about a skill, technique, material choice, or supplier should post that thread in Shop Talk.
All general knifemaking information or Q&A type threads should stay in Shop Talk.
 
I'm somewhat new around these parts, but I'm honestly a bit confused by these changes/additions.

When I come to Shop Talk, I come here to read all things knifemaking related. While I understand that it technically breaks the forum rules as they are, working with ADD/ADHD or collaborating with a production company are totally topics I want to and expect to read about, especially as a person who makes knives and has ADD.

My opinions on that aside, creating subforums should be minimized and only should be created out of an absolute necessity. Enough of a certain type of thread pop up to warrant a section of their own, or people want to talk off topic with the certain "parent" community. Knifemakers wanted a place to share their favorite beers, share recipies, show off their cars, or whatever. Thus, something like ATG is created. People want to share pictures of their latest work? Knifemaker's gallery is created.

So the main intent of the new H&T section to me seems to be in response to the overwhelming amount of newbie WIP threads and whatnot... it creates a place someone like me can go to post pictures of my current projects to get advice from the veterans. I think that is absolutely a fantastic idea, and it makes perfect sense to me. If I need suggestions on a project, or want to share my knowledge with another maker on his, I know where to go... and at the same time it doesn't annoy those who don't care to read another "First Knife WIP!" However, it was catalyzed by, and tried to sweep up, a few other categories of topics. Honestly, that part just feels like a patch job.

There comes a point where things become overly or improperly compartmentalized. Overdo it, and a whole subsection fizzles off and dies... and it can trail off into the parent forum. Improperly do it, and there becomes a huge grey area. Right now, I think we're dealing with a little of both, but mostly a major grey area. We have a forum that says "Bladesmith Questions and Answers," while the new H&T reads "ask questions." Give me a topic to post about, and I quite honestly don't know if I'd know where to put it. I'd imagine for an even newer member, it'd be even more confusing.

That said, perhaps a bit of an overhaul or reorganization of this section is needed. My suggestion? Knifemaker's Shop Talk as a place where anything related to the art and business of knifemaking can be discussed, disabilities and business plans included. Keep ATG for off-topic discussions, Gallery for showing off completed work, and have Hammer & Tongs be the new place to share your current (non-instructive/informative) WIPs. Not perfect, but it's simple. If the main Shop Talk section becomes too "busy" with topics, create another new subforum (IE business of knifemaking question or a newbie introduction section). Though, I hardly see a busy/active forum as a bad thing.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Should any or all of these forums be paid knifemakers only or open to everyone?
Click to expand...

Open to everyone. Traffic and open discussion is a good thing. If a collector wants to drop by and ask a shop question and join the discussion he should feel welcome here. As soon as it is limited to just paid members you loose that valuable outside element.

Also, I think most of us would like it if Cashen and Bump etc came back. Adding hurdles to that isn't going to help.
 
bladsmth said:
I agree, Nathan. This new forum isn't going to solve many of the problems, but it is what Spark created, so it is what we have to work with.
Click to expand...

Hey, if we're talking about straining some of the water out of the soup but keeping the meat then I'm all for it.
 
Every online community evolves, and this one is no exception. Even in the relatively short time I've been involved in this forum I have noticed that the traffic in Shop Talk has become more and more newbie-centric. I'm not saying that's good or bad... or even statistically verifiable. It's just my perception.

Would I like more informed threads by experienced makers? Sure, that would be nice. Will the new subforum allow that to happen? Time will tell.

As for my own part, I've put knifemaking on hold for a while, as I reassess what I'm doing and why I am doing it. In the meantime, I still want to support the community (as best I can).

- Greg
 
I see very little, if any, distinction between "...WIP is to share pictures of a project you are working on, and not to teach the skills", and "...WIP is to teach a skill, or demonstrate a skill, or to show advanced workmanship". I can write the same post either way and the reader can interpret it either way. That's just trivial semantics.

Its a hard job indeed to differentiate between what is worthy of Shop Talk and what isn't. The new guys want to get feedback on their first efforts, and the old pros want to share knowledge or an extra-ordinary technique. The old pros may get a bit weary of noobie WIP's, but I believe it all comes with the ST territory - about the knifemaking process - and its all welcome.

A while back I posted in ST my encounter with a noise complaint from a neighbor about the noise from my forging. So I suppose that qualifies as..."Threads about subjects of interest to knife makers, but not directly about knifemaking skills should also go in Hammer and Tongs." and would now go in Hammer and Tongs..?? What if I included photos of my anvil setup and noise abatement measures..... is that now a WIP?... and should go .... where?

Again, I see this division as just semantics.

Bring the party back into the same room and relax the posting guidelines so that threads on knife maker's ADHD and mid-tech collaboration are welcomed in ST.

My .02

-Peter
 
Some great WIP have been posted in the Custom knife forum. Why would they feel more comfortable posting it there then in Shop Talk?
 
P. McKinley said:
I see very little, if any, distinction between "...WIP is to share pictures of a project you are working on, and not to teach the skills", and "...WIP is to teach a skill, or demonstrate a skill, or to show advanced workmanship". I can write the same post either way and the reader can interpret it either way. That's just trivial semantics.

Its a hard job indeed to differentiate between what is worthy of Shop Talk and what isn't. The new guys want to get feedback on their first efforts, and the old pros want to share knowledge or an extra-ordinary technique. The old pros may get a bit weary of noobie WIP's, but I believe it all comes with the ST territory - about the knifemaking process - and its all welcome.

A while back I posted in ST my encounter with a noise complaint from a neighbor about the noise from my forging. So I suppose that qualifies as..."Threads about subjects of interest to knife makers, but not directly about knifemaking skills should also go in Hammer and Tongs." and would now go in Hammer and Tongs..?? What if I included photos of my anvil setup and noise abatement measures..... is that now a WIP?... and should go .... where?

Again, I see this division as just semantics.

Bring the party back into the same room and relax the posting guidelines so that threads on knife maker's ADHD and mid-tech collaboration are welcomed in ST.

My .02

-Peter
Click to expand...

AGREED.
Why not let the newbies post here so that the experienced guys see it and can reply. It's clear that the experienced guys are more than willing to help the newbies. I've talked with some of the guys that no longer contribute here and I now starting to see their reasons for leaving. This is a great forum and I think it is time to start listen to the guys like Nick, Nathan and others that do the major contributing. Otherwise they may decide to spend their time elsewhere where their voices are heard.
Jim
 
P. McKinley said:
I see very little, if any, distinction between "...WIP is to share pictures of a project you are working on, and not to teach the skills", and "...WIP is to teach a skill, or demonstrate a skill, or to show advanced workmanship". I can write the same post either way and the reader can interpret it either way. That's just trivial semantics.
Click to expand...

My take on it is this... first one would be for a maker who is looking to get feedback, advice, or critique while he works on a knife. Second would be a thread in which the maker is not looking for advice, but rather wants to share how he does things for others' benefit. All about the direction in which the flow of information is travelling. That differentiation I can actually stomach.

P. McKinley said:
Its a hard job indeed to differentiate between what is worthy of Shop Talk and what isn't.

...

A while back I posted in ST my encounter with a noise complaint from a neighbor about the noise from my forging. So I suppose that qualifies as..."Threads about subjects of interest to knife makers, but not directly about knifemaking skills should also go in Hammer and Tongs." and would now go in Hammer and Tongs..?? What if I included photos of my anvil setup and noise abatement measures..... is that now a WIP?... and should go .... where?
Click to expand...

That's my biggest issue with the situation and changes. To me, it creates a huge grey area which I feel creates confusion... and for what? To follow the rules? Even if concrete differences are established for those who frequent the subforum, someone who doesn't come around as often isn't necessarily going to know how to follow those rules. If the new section is to remain, there should be as little overlap as possible between them.

P. McKinley said:
Bring the party back into the same room and relax the posting guidelines so that threads on knife maker's ADHD and mid-tech collaboration are welcomed in ST.
Click to expand...

Agreed. While I understand Stacy is just enforcing the rules set up for the subforum, and I think no one can argue the fact that he goes above and beyond his position, allowing a forum to self-moderate itself to a point is not necessarily a bad thing. If a topic is popular in a subforum, that means the community there finds it relevant to their interests... and it'll remain near the top of the "list." Unpopular topics or ones people don't find relevant will be buried into the abyss in a day or two. If a thread is deleted or moved, it should be blatantly obvious as to why it was.

Overall, I guess I just don't see the point with fragmenting this community into more places than it needs to be.
 
I don't think adding a new forum is the solution to the problem. Shop talk needs to be a bit like the wild west. Open, free, and where all the excitement is at.
 
While I'm really glad to see Spark trying to help Stacy clean things up!!! :) .......I gotta say this wasn't the type of thing that I was hoping for. My feelings on this echo Nathan's and Fred's posts VERY closely.

Some folks mistook my thread yesterday as me saying the forum should be divided--- Quite the contrary! I personally would like it to be less divided. I think what has made SHOPTALK such a great forum for so many guys, for so many years, is the fact that it has been a wide open forum for knife makers to interact.

Whether it's a new guy asking where he can get steel, or a crazy awesome, evil genius machinist like Nathan doing a thread showing master machinist level work on a 9" steel disc....:eek: :cool: it's all included here. I don't get a lot of time on the computer (unless it's a day like yesterday where I'm at the pc a long time printing shipping labels and such) so having it all in one place sure is nice. :thumbup:

I simply wanted to keep ShopTalk a place where knife makers can talk shop. :)

If that means tweaking "the rules" a bit, then that seems like a much easier/simpler solution than adding sub-forums. Especially since it looks like there's a lot of us that are confused by what should be posted where.


So thank you guys for putting forth an effort to improve, but I don't think more sub-forums is the way to do it.
 
My head is spinning here...................

I think that more openness here fosters community, collaboration, mentoring and friendship.

I believe that Shoptalk's rules could be loosened without any problem or disruption.

Just my 2 cents

Corey "synthesist" Gimbel
 
Hello,

I am not sure if my opinion even counts, But I sure love reading the threads here and find alot of them very educational. I hope and pray it remains as an open community to share ideas and talk about knife making..

Thanks,
Corey Kelly, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Adding a new subforum isn't going to generate cool new topics. People come here with cool topics. If those cool topics get swept off into a subforum they will get less trafic and they will languish and die, just like ATG. Why would someone like me or Nick want to expend the time and energy to do a WIP thread if it's going to get swept off into the corner. That would be a problem.

Rather than try to force people to conform to an organization scheme, why not listen to their needs and give them what they want? Shoptalk is a community of people that come here to interact with each other and talk shop. That's the whole point, that's what people want, a place to talk shop. Not to be compartmentalized.

Also, people don't come to the forum to see a first year maker's WIP thread about making knives in their mother's basement. They come here to see the advanced stuff they don't already know. That is the valuable content and that is what drives the volume here. Listen to the people that create that content and give them what they need or that content will go elsewhere. And what will be left?
Click to expand...

I agree and I think this is one of the reasons the outdoors subforum has withered to the extent that it has. IMO you should spin off a sub-forum when the traffic is too large in an existing sub-forum. If you post a thread and then come back to it 20 minutes later and it's already at the bottom of page 2, then it's time for a spin off sub-forum. You should NOT do it for the sake of having a nicely compartimentalized forum. That looks nice but it leads to cliques and off topic chatting in sub-forums which kills diversity and makes for uninteresting conversation. Not to throw Beckerheads under the bus but they have wildly off topic threads and then just post a photo of a Becker knife that has nothing to do with the topic to have "becker content."

Two stage approach, limit the amount of sub-forums and increase the movement of off topic threads to the appropriate forum. This will increase the diversity of the people in each sub- forum and make for a livelier and more informed discussion while DECREASING the amount of work the mods would have to do. Yes I believe it would decrease the workload on the mods.

Off my soap box now. :D
 
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