Sorry guys, you're wrong, Rob Simonich is right

The "average user" is not here on the forums.Being about the only knife nut on a 525 man fire dept.I do though get to sharpen alot of their knives;) . My experiance has been that they often can't tell what brand their knife is let alone the steel(theres more than one??).

I can't tell you the number of times someone asks me to sharpen their "buck"knife,when its really a Schrade,Puma etc.alot of these knives have never been sharpened at all.used yes sharpened no.

Would they notice a differance in steels?sure with a better steel they can go ten years between sharpening instead of five.:rolleyes:
 
I am glad that this has lead to some real discussion instead of just a bunch of knee jerking.

The point that I wanted to make in my first post was that out of the brands I advised the guy to check out that the quality was all the same and that his choice would come down to personal preference. Hey they are all good knives after all. But after Pretender (yes I know its contender) wanted to try me, I said what has been on my mind for a long while now.

If there is one thing that can be fairly said about me it is that I am anti-hype. For the most part I just keep my mouth shut and let guys make all the claims they want to. But there was such an agenda going on it was too tempting not to shut it all down.


While we discuss and I am sure have friendly debates over the issue I want you to keep one thing in mind. This is how hyped advertising works. There is a TV ad that is running (at least here in CA) currently. It is about bleach. You have the generic bleach bottles looking for their guarantee that they kill germs. The bleach points out the Clorox guarantees to kill germs, so why can't they. This leave the consumers with the impression that while Clorox kills germs the other brands don’t. They never say that the others don't, they just imply it. Of course the truth is that all bleach will kill germs equally well. Clorox is just making it sound as if it is something special.

So is the story with knife hyping. Cold Steel was the first that I can remember (I am sure it happened before them) to bring hype to an art form. They showed their knives doing what seemed to be outstanding things. Of course the truth was that any well made knife can do the same things. But since Cold Steel made such a big deal over it, it made them look as if they were something special. People bought into it left and right. And they still do.

Next I also want you to consider that if you are reading this, then chances are you ARE NOT the average knife user. I think that we can all agree to that.

Next lets take out a few obvious exceptions. For my point I am leaving out the cheapest of the cheap (i.e. Paky blades) and I am leaving out the super super alloys like Talonite, Ceramics and Stellite. I am also grouping steels in to two large categories, those being Carbon (low chrome) and stainless (high chrome). I do not intend to cross compare steels out of their selected categories.

I also am not making any reference to forged blades. There are just too many possible variables to be able to evaluate just the steel. This is because the quality of the steels performance in directly in line with the skill of the makers.

Lastly if you do not intend to look at this from an honest viewpoint I will not take the time to even acknowledge your statements.

OK, that being out of the way lets start.

Now say you have two makers. Each makes a utility hunter with a four inch blade from 1/8" stock. Each maker sends his blades to the same place for heat-treating and cryo. Now let’s also say that each maker uses say ATS-34 for his blade steel. Will the steel in each knife perform exactly the same? Yes, of course it will. However, will each knife perform the same? No, maybe not. While the performance of the knife is linked to the performance of the steel, the performance of the steel is not related in any way to the overall design of the knife. Knife performance also takes into account blade shape, handle shape, grind angles and secondary edge angle just to name a few.

Now lets take it a little larger. Hossom, Rinaldi, Strider, Loveless, and many other makers (myself included) use the same exact heat treater, Paul Bos. Or knives are heat treated in exactly the same ovens using exactly the same formulas. So if we all used ATS-34 for a blade would all the steels perform the same? Again the answer must be yes. Once again the performance of the steel itself is not related to any other factors in the design of the knife.

So if we all made exactly the same knife with exactly the same steel the knives would perform exactly the same. Once again I think that we can all agree with this.

The above is just for a basis, and is not my argument.

We, as knife nuts, live in a totally different world than the average knife user. We understand enough about steels to be able to notice things that the average consumer would never notice. However, we must step out of or vacuum and look at this topic in a much larger picture. Think of it this way. You are a NASCAR driver. You know that if you changed X on your car that you could get 1/2 an extra horse out of your engine. And you would indeed notice that tiny little bitsy amount. However, if you take the average driver and put him in a NASCAR racecar he would not have any idea of what you had changed.

This could be for two reasons. First, he is not knowledgeable enough about the car to notice such a small change. Second, the change is only noticed at 211mph, and the average driver will never go above a hundred. So the change will not even have a chance to make itself known.

So is true with knife steels. All steels are different. Some are better, some are worse, and some a just different. But how much better or worse are we really talking about. Not much when viewed as a large picture.

I had a customer order a skinning knife from me about a year ago. We started talking about what type of steel he would like. He stated that he really did not know that much about the different steels. So he asked me to put the differences into real world terms. After finding out what he hunted and how often he hunted, I told him that the best choices would be either X, Y, or Z. He looked confused. I explained that with X steel he could go about half a season before he needed to resharpen, with Y he could go about a full season and with Z he could go at least two seasons. He considered this and asked what the cost of each steel would be. He chose X. He simply felt that 1) X would perform well within what he needed from a knife and 2) with X performing so well he really did not need to spend the extra on Y or Z.

Of course we all would have said well give me Z of course, but then we are not the average knife users. He was not going to push the steels to level where they really made a whole lot of difference. He was not going to drive above 100 when the differences really appeared at 200.

So it is with the vast majority of knife users. Most of us (myself included) do not push steel to its limits. I will on the rare occasion of testing to destruction. And then you bet I notice! And notice in a major way. However, in daily carry I just do not do that much cutting.

A point was made that the average knife user is the office type and not a do it yourselfer. If they were then they would surely notice. I disagree. I am far from an office type. And I don't think it can get much more do it yourself. I run a knifemaking business, and of course I use knives alot in my daily work. During a single day I will cut, cardboard, rope, heavy leather, stingray skin, Kydex, Concealex, hard rubber, sand paper and many many other things that are hard on a knife blade. However, unless I am actively testing a knife I use many tools to do this cutting. The heaviest cutting that my EDC will see is packing tape. I do not think that anyone would consider a knifemaker to be the average user and yet you could replace the ATS-34 blade in my Benchmade with 440A and I do not honestly believe that I would notice. Or if I did, it would take a very very long time. This is why it is important to be honest with yourself about how you use your knives on a regular basis.

Even when I am being a little extreme in my activities, my knives do not get pushed that hard. I do alot of mountain climbing (technical stuff 5.10 class and higher), hiking and camping. During a camping trip my EDC will almost never come out of my pocket. My heavier camp knife will see some chopping of fallen wood, but not a whole cord worth. I just do not push my knives anywhere close to the limit of their performance abilities. I am operating with in the performance abilities of 420. So do I believe I would notice the difference? No I do not. I am doing 90 in a top fuel dragster.

As a LEO I can barely remember using my knife on the job. Yes I still carried three, and would do the same today. But, I can not remember ever cutting anything on the job! So if you replaced the blades in my knives with lesser steel would I have noticed? Not a chance!

You may be thinking, well you were not a tactical officer. You are right, I was not. But let’s take a look at the tactical officer. What are they going to cut with their knives? Now mind you, I did receive alot of tactical training so do know a thing or two about it. Am I going to cut through doors? No, you use shotguns to blow off locks; special prybars to remove security doors and rams to break a door off its hinges. The only cutting I am likely to do is rope, tape and flesh. None of these things are all the hard on a blade. Even the rope, considering I might make one or two cuts a week. So are we really pushing the steel in that Strider anywhere close to its performance cap? Not even close! If you replaced the ATS-34 in a Strider with 420, AUS-8 or 440A would you notice a performance difference. No, I say you would not.

Lets take a look at a SpecOps soldier the extreme of the extreme. What are they likely to cut with a knife? Rope, tape, webbing, flesh and maybe leather. Even on the rare chance that that they do have to take someone out with a knife they are most likely cutting only flesh. But let’s say that they have to go through heavy clothing. Are they operating outside the performance limits of even the lowest grade of steels? No, they are not. You may want to say well what if the have to cut through Kevlar or a ballistic plate. GET REAL! First, kevlar is pretty easy to cut second no knife can cut through a ballistic plate. Not held by a human at least. And how often would they even need to pull the knife from its sheath anyhow. Do you think that they are cutting outside of the ability of any common knife steel? No!

Now there are areas that YOU WILL NOTICE! Heavy chopping of course will quickly separate one steel from another. But how many of us use knives for heavy chopping on a regular basis. If I am doing heavy prolonged chopping I am using an axe, or more likely a chainsaw. No, I am not trying to be funny. Just pointing out that unless you are TRYING to push a knife, chances are you are doing 90.

Unless you are actively trying to push knives to their limits, you are most likely no where close to exceeding the limits of the lowest stainless.

Now do not get me wrong. I am talking only about cutting, and cutting pure and straightforward. I am not talking about bending, prying or any other extreme knife activity. That is more related to knife design than to the steel used.

I am also no where close to saying that we should not use and pursue better and better steels. I am now using S30V as my standard steel. Why? Because even if 99% of all knife users never need that level of performance there is still the 1% that do.

I am also not trying to down play or insult any knifemaker or knife company. Not all knives are designed purely for cutting. And I understand that.

My final point is this. How can you really tell the difference in steel performance when we mostly operate in the lowest levels of a steels range?

So to close up the point I made before about the same steel with the same heat treat is this. If we, even at extreme daily use, are operating within the performance of 420HC or 440C, then why stress about whether a knife is ATS-34 or 154CM (or BG42 and S30V, or S30V and S90V). As long as it is a well made knife from a quality maker or company it will serve you well. It is far more important to get a knife that fits your hand, and is designed for the type of cutting you are most likely to do.

That is why I said that they are all the same quality, just get one that you like.

I truly welcome any and all comments. If you disagree, great. Lets discuss it. But if you are just going to be a butthead and say I don't know jack ****, then I am just going to ignore you. Just remember that I am not some loon off the street. I do have 12 yrs in the knifemaking business business and for the last 2 yrs have been spending 60+ hours a week working with knives.

So let me hear what ya got.

Thanks

Ron
 
Not pushing a steel to its limits simply means the knife is overbuilt and poorly designed (for you). A knife should be built to its limits, otherwise you are wasting cutting ability for no functional gain, common, but hardly optimal. When made in this way, which all high end knives should be, differences between steels are significant.

The lower end steels won't hold the same geometry and be functional as the higher end steels. Yes if you overbuild everything then nothing will fail regardless of the materials, however this is a simple design flaw and not an argument that steel choice doesn't make critical importance.

So that is the durability aspect, which is strongly linked to cutting ability and thus both of which low end steels reduce. There is also the edge holding aspect. And yes, if your frequency of knife work, and tolerance for sharpness is low then you won't see much of a difference here either. So yes an argument could be made that a lot of people won't notice the advantage, and I would not doubt that the majority of knife users would fall into this class.

The point about hype I would agree with strongly though. It is the fundamental problem with talking about knife performance in isolation. It is meaningless to use relative terms with no defined reference points. The majority of the times that is done just for promotional hype and just indicates average performance.

-Cliff
 
Thanks for the post, Ron. You make very good points, and I agree with what you say. I still prefer "plain old 1095" for camping for many reasons.

This kind of a post makes sense and puts things in perspective, far more than the "you're not smart enough to know the difference" type of posts that we are starting to see on these forums.

Thanks again.
 
A knife should be built to its limits, otherwise you are wasting cutting ability for no functional gain, common, but hardly optimal.
Click to expand...

Cliff with this I agree. However, for the average user this would mean that the ideal knife is a box cutter. While it is ideal (and the knife I most often use in the shop) it would not be very popular with the buying public. On the other hand it is supported by the fact that the Swiss Army Classic is one of the best selling knives in the world.

But if I tried to market a fixed blade with 1/32" blade stock, I would be left with alot of unsold knives. While this knife would be perfect for the average users cutting tasks it would not meet the anticipated uses of a EDC.

For example. It would make a poor choice for personal defense. A use that most folks who carry EDCs take into seriuos account when chosing a knife. So while the knife is overbuilt for the actual use that it will most likely see, it is ideal for the uses that it "could" see. Therefore it is designed right at its performing limits, but is just not used at its limits. And as such the performance level of the steel is not approached.

Does that make any sense?
 
I am pretty much in accord with everyone on this. I think that Cliff and RW are actually in two different arguments because I think both their assertions are valid and do not really contradict each other.

I do think it is smart design though to build a blade to the 99th use percentile, because the person who uses 50% of that blade's durability 99.9% of the time might want that extra 40% of durability in a pinch. If you are using a blade to 90% of its capacity all the time, sooner or later, you are going to over stress it. The only applications where that would be practical are single purpose knives that get used constantly for one thing only. I agree with Cliff though, that most knives are over built for the use they will reasonably be put too, more like 200% instead of 99%.

My perspective is that when comparing premium knife steels, with excellent heat treatment, you only see the differences in them when you go over the 99% line of performance to the 1% area where damage occurs. Once an edge fails, you can say steel A failed worse than steel B, but up to that 99% line, they still perform pretty similarly. An automotive analogy might be two different SUVs, same horse power, same passenger capacity, same torque, and towing ability, similar top speeds, similar excelleration, and so on. You crash them into a wall at 40 mph, one needs the frame straightened and major body work, but the other one is totaled. The difference in strength is there, but you can't use it unless you go over the line of reasonable use. And I think that is true no matter how thin the edge on a blade is...as long as we are comparing two good steels, heat treated properly, not comparing 440A to CPM S90V, but say 154CM to BG-42, 1095 to A-2, and so on.

I have to admit though, chopping is a high stress use that will probably point out difference in the last percentile without destroying an edge. I think you can probably appreciate the differences in premium steels if you do heavy chopping, or of course the expected use for a sword. But that only goes to show that there is no black and white on this topic, like every other topic.
 
WoW, I think we all actually agree. With the junk I was catching early on I expected alot more nay sayers.

Cliff and I do seem to agree with this in the theory application.

Steve, that is exactly the point I was trying to make.

Thanks
 
R.W., I would agree that a simple utility knife, like the snap-off ones made by Olfa (sp), are excellent choices for every day chores, hence their name and popularity with construction workers and other craftsmen who use knives heavily. However the edge retention is poor due to the soft and low alloy steel, and the lateral strength is fairly low, You solve both of this by carrying a ten pack of blades and sharpening them at the end of the day, replacing them when necessary.

However, I prefer a fixed blade with a highly efficient cutting profile which solves both of these problems, and as well has a more ergonomic and secure handle, and is easier to clean besides. You can also customize the profile for specific cutting chores. You can make a blade which will directly out cut those utility knives, and offer those other advantages as well. However, is there a market for a such a simple blade designed just to cut simple materials and do it exceptionally well for a very long time? I would not disagree with your proposition that if there is one, it isn't very large.

As for self-defence, yes, it is a solid arguement that you can carry a knife which is vastly overbuilt for the vast majority of work that you do, however which on occasion could be called in to do something else that it far harder. For example, the limbing blades I use are not profiled for maximum cutting ability on clear wood. On occasion, they have to be able to clear the stubs off some wood which grew in a low light condition. This is done carefully, as otherwise I would have to give up too much cutting ability. Of course I am adjusting the blades for me. A knifemaker the much more difficult of a user who is virtually unknown. If I grind too far and the knife breaks apart, so what. However this could do a lot of harm to trying to build a customer base early on.


However the fact still remains for all of this, that the better steels can offer a slimmer profile, regardless of where you want to set this upper point point. Something I have not considered before which stands out to me now though, which comes from reading your comments, is that the difference in performance of the steels is probably not as large as the "safety" margin that knifemakers tend to build into their knives and thus going with high end steels, unless highly optomized, in a lot of cases may not offer you much. This is where the value of a true custom knife, one in which the user has direct feedback on the design, comes into play.

Steve does make a very solid argument specific to use. If you ignore high impact use, then the influence of ductility and toughness is vastly reduced. All you have left is hardness and strength (wear resistance and corrosion resistance being fairly narrow and obvious in application). In these aspects most cutlery steels are nearly identical.

S60V at 55 RC is obviously just as hard (or soft) as AISI 420HC at 55 RC. Thus both edges will see impaction and deformation at the same time, and an average user could very well judge them identical over a wide range of tasks. Same with most cutlery steels as the vast majority fall with a 3-4 RC point spread, and that is only a few percent change in tensile strength (roughly linear with hardness).

-Cliff
 
I think I agree with everyone, if that's possible(?). Average knife users, knife knuts and makers (both factory and custom), see things from different view points. There was a thread over on the Spyderco forum, some time ago where Sal and most of the forumites agreed that they perfered flat to saber grinds on folders, such as the Calypso Jr., but Sal found that the saber grinds sell while the flat grinds did not.
 
Well I don't really know enough about knives, blade steels ect. to even begin to argue with these fine gentlemen. What I do know is that I fall into the group of users that don't really take their knives to the performance limit. I still like the premium blade steels, but I can't tell the difference between them. I guess I'm just a steel snob.
:D
 
I'm with Easyrider. I also don't know alot about steels. I also use knives in a way that would be easily handled by knives in the $10-$15 range. But why drive an old beat up car when you can afford a Lexus? For me it's not about pushing knives to the limit. I happen to like Tom Mayo's TNT and I have two and one on order. Do I really need them? Do I use them that hard that I need them? No. But when I need to cut something, I sure like pulling out my medium TNT and doing the job. Overbuilt? Maybe. But if I kept to the less expensive knives, part of my life would be gone. I really enjoy dealing with Tom and going to knife shows and reading these forums. And for me that is what it is about. I think life is too short not to have the things that make you happy. I know I could get adequate cutting tools for a lot less than what I spend. But buying nice knives makes me happy and that's the bottom line. I think that the world would be real boring if we all only got what we needed. Something about a well made knife makes it a pleasure for me to own. I'll continue to buy them because I can and I like them and that's good enough for me.
 
Scott Dog, I am with you all the way. There are few things finer than a fantastically crafted knife. Nothing I have said should be taken to mean that these treasures should not be sought out. (I would have to get a real job:D).

I COULD get through my whole life in a beat up pick up, but one day I will have that "69 Ford Mustang Mach I with a 429CJ! Why? BECAUSE I WANT IT!;)
 
One comment as to a knife being "overbuilt" cause it may be used for SD...

Following advice I got from Master at arms Bram Frank - I now carry at least two knives - the "user" that gets used for daily chores and the SD knife (preferably a FB) that sees NO use whatsoever- to make sure it stays THAT sharp at all times and never get dull - cause Murphy dictates it will happen just at the wrong moment...

This being said - the SD knife can have any good steel - as long as the geometry and ergonomics are there cause it will be called upon once in a life time- hopefully less

this is the best thread in the BF in a long time.

Thanks RW and Cliff.
 
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