speaking of grain, newbie agin

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Sep 17, 2007
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I've never really paid attention to this before, I'm totally NEW new so why would I have "looked" for it. Right?
Just what is the grain?
Is it seeable to the naked eye?
If so, is it anything like the grain in wood?
Is grain direction changeable?
SOOOO much for me to learn!
THanks,
ttoney83
 
The simple answer is that as a newbie, the grain doesn't matter.

The "grain" is the direction of structural dislocation of the steel formed when the sheet/bar was rolled out in the foundry.

It is really of little concern in a stock removal blade. If you forge, it is ofvirtually no concern.

Could mete or Kevin detect the grain in a piece of steel - easily.
Can you? Probably not.
Stacy
 
Actually, since you're (as unlikely as it may sound) even newer than I am (that's saying a LOT!) might as well get you started off on the right foot. By which, there is a lot of confusion surrounding this particular issue. As much as it bugs me when people start nit picking metallurgy that's over my head, I don't mean to come off as doing the same thing. Just trying to save you a bump that I stumbled over for quite awhile. That being said, here it is:

There are actually two different, and distinct kinds of "grain"

One is exactly as Stacy just described to you, and is inherent in the steel from the mill.

The other is "grains" that form during thermal processing. Actually, they are the remnants of the austenite grains that form when the ferrite and cementite go into soloution.

From an absoloute beginners perspective, I follow the advice already laid out for the first of the two. The directionality is of so little import that I simply ignore it.

The second of the two can be tamed by a couple of good normalizing cycles as an integral part of your heat treating regime.

For the second, there is a lot of emphasis on "fine" or "small" grain. This is BY FAR less important than having -even- grain sizes. Sure, under the right circumstances, given everything else (design, edge geometry, etc etc.) is just right, a small fine grain may help eek out that last bit of measurable performance, but it's just not that important for us newbies.
 
I know I am a newbie myself, but I'll give my .02 cents on the matter as I have been blacksmith for several years now.

Basically the only time that you will see the grain (unless you are really thorough in your polishing stages of the blade construction and doing a differential heat treat) is when the metal breaks or cracks during use. Usually do to a bad heat treat/temper. Basically if you heat the blade up and quench it in the wrong quenchent (to fast of an evaporation rate of the quenchent which causes the metal to harden to much) and don't temper it to a lower brittleness then you can get areas in the blade where it is brittle (which will look like large grainy areas in the cross section of the break) and be a weak point in the blade.

I've seen this in some blacksmithing work (not blades) where higher carbon steel (for blacksmithing that would be still less the 1050 steel unless making a tool or something out of spring steel) is used. Normally after you quench the item you would heat it back up to around 1000 degrees and then let it cool in the air very slowly to relieve the stresses from the forging and the quench. Not as indepth as a tempering cycle where you let the blade stay at a certain temperture range for a set time and then cool it off again, but basically the same idea goes into it. This all help to reduce the stress (by slightly changing the grain pattern in the metal.

Sorry for getting long winded. Hopefully I didn't confuse anybody with my tired ramblings, and if I have accidentally misrepresented anything I hope that somebody with more experience will step in and make any corrections.
 
Atoms form crystals and a group of crystals form a grain. That's the type of grain that gives us 'grain size' .We want that to be small as large grains are brittle.....The other 'grain' is a difference in properties in different directions. This may mean crystal orientation due to rolling [anisotropy], but is usually orientation of nonmetallic inclusions. Alloy banding may also be the cause.
 
As mete pointed out alloy banding and inconsistancies from the mill can be seen readily with the naked eye and this stuff for the most part cannot be changed too drastically by you (banding however can be made more vivid by messing around).

However austenite grains and the products that fill the spaces where they were should not be veiwable by the naked eye or you have them WAY too big. Polishing blades and etching the surface will only show you transitions from different phases not grains! I am a little touchy on this one because I work my tail off carefully slicing up and polishing metallography samples in order to actually observe the grains and I can tell you that it is a whole lot more involved that dipping a blade in FeCl. Lets put it this way ASTM meaures the average grain size at 100X magnification, if you wnat to look at the structures inside you are going to need at least 400X or better. For the metallographic images used in my lectures I intentionally grow the grains in the samples very large so that I don't have to go to 1000X or better just to get a good shot of them.
 
Yeah, but that's only 'casue you forgot that final polishing step...

You gotta rub your thumb over the surface, feeling how smooth it is, then run your shirt over it to even out the oils from your fingers!
 
I can always get volunteers for that;). But one of the issues of going to 1000X is that my obejectives for that are oil imersion and after I do it the sample is trashed for the other lenses unless I repolish it again.

I actually did a real dumb move today, I got distracted listening to the radio and applied 15,000X diamond past to my 50,000X wheel:o I am done polishing samples until I strip that disk down and re-felt it:grumpy:
 
interesting thread.. In the late 80s when i started collecting forged blades, couple of old time MS told me that forging actually reduces grain size? It also says so on a coupla old catalogs that I kept from that time.. Just wondering, is there any truth to that?
 
That topic is a great way to get off into either a few reasonable assumptions or a whole pile of B.S.. The crystals inside of steel reform from heat. You cannot shrink them, fracture or break them up smaller with a hammer, all you can do is deform them. The deformation thus introduces strain energy which will affect how the heat reforms them. But then the question comes in as to which is more efficient heat and hammer or heat alone. The hammering and reheating will indeed knock the grain size down quite quickly, but unless you use something like a rolling mill so that you can do it all very evenly it could result in a very uneven grain size and distribution. However if you use thermal treaments alone you can use the phases of the steel to also quickly reduce grain size and then all you have to do is heat it evenly. We are now in the 21st century and progress is being made, virtually every credible master smith I know now wisely distances themselves from the old silly notions of edge packing.

So much of the old misconceptions are a result of our own eyes lying to us. Any time a smith gets a results that resembles what they were wishing for they jump to conclusions and a new pile of manure is born. Blindly saying "it works for me and thats all I need to know", has shackled this business in ignorance for centuries and can lock any of us in medievalism very quickly.

I just experienced it this week, while doing experiments in low temperature cycling as it relates to segregation. I knew that high termperatures would dissolve segregated constituents and move them around but after normalizing the samples microscopy showed heavy banding in the high temp pieces and no banding in the low temp pieces:confused: Everything in all the books was wrong! Then I followed that up with a quench on the same steels and got the exact reverse, just as the books say you should:o Putting the pieces under higher magnification explained it all. The piece that was cycled at higher heats did indeed have the carbon evenly dissolved so that there were no huge crabides hanging around and its grain was a couple sizes larger. So when normalized the segregated finer grained stuff was so low in hardenability that it transformed competely into softer phases with no contrast. The stuff that was cycled hot had increased its hardenability so much that large bands of martensite had formed between sheets of very fine pearlite and bainite giving a stark contrasting white and black banding. Quenching them both, of course reversed this situation.

If I had taken the prevaling attitude and approach in bladesmithing to immediately run with the initial results that I seen with my own eyes and thus not ask any deeper questions, I would be throwing away all of my metallurgy books right now because they simply don't apply to knifemaking;).
 
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