Spear techniques

Fairly hard to desig it to bend but not break, if one could loosen it, straightening was not a problem. I know that the bending theory is the official one but I have not seen it really tested.

TLM
 
Thats right. I am familiar with the pilum and verutum. They were javelins, not spears. I don't mean to split hairs or argue, but there is a great deal of difference between a a spear, a dart and a javelin.
If you look at a yari, a viking spear and a pilum, you're going to see a big difference in design and materials.
Even a layman would instantly put the yari and the viking spear in one group and the pilum (javelin) in another.
A spear is not meant to be thrown, and certainly not at a tree.
A javelin ( pilum) is meant to be thrown, but it is not much use as a spear.
 
None of the dictionaries I consulted could make the distinction of a spear being non-throw weapon. Some argued that " a light throwing spear or javelin".

TLM
 
A javelin ( pilum) is meant to be thrown, but it is not much use as a spear.
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Hmm. should I discount the feature, "difficult to cut the head off" totally, One uses what is available.

TLM
 
TLM said:
Hmm. should I discount the feature, "difficult to cut the head off" totally, One uses what is available.
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Don't discount it -- that was important to its effectiveness. If it had a relatively small shank that could be chopped through or broken with a good stomp, whatever the head was embedded in could be quickly returned to service. With a long metal shank that simply bent when force was applied, there could be no "cheating"...you either pulled it out or discarded the shield, and the head was designed to resist being pulled out. Even if you managed to somehow disconnect the shank from the shaft you'd still be left with a very unwieldy piece of iron stuck in your armor. The weapon's design (or what we think to be its design) is too unusual in comparison to other similar weapons for there to be any other reason. Iron was expensive, particularly for a disposable weapon. If the weapon would have been as effective with an entirely wooden shaft and just a small metal head, wouldn't they have built them like that instead?

That's probably why we only saw something like this with the Romans in the first place; what other army could afford such an extravagence?

In all likelihood, it was this bending feature that the head was designed for; preventing its reuse by the other side was just an additional (and possibly unforseen) benefit.

While it's an interesting and pleasurable subject, I'd caution against too much speculation. We still can't even agree whether their tunicas were red, white, or unbleached/natural. (Probably all of the above if you ask me, but why?) Between the records, the reenactors, and the existing artifacts we can get a fairly good idea of how things went and even the occasional unexpected insight but we'll likely never know the whole story.

And with the pilum in particular, why are there so few existing samples in comparison to other Roman weapons, and why do they all look different?
 
And with the pilum in particular, why are there so few existing samples in comparison to other Roman weapons, and why do they all look different?
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Propably for the same reason the Gladiuses looks different, local smiths forged them where ever the legions went. Standardized measurements were not yet really invented, just the general idea.

TLM
 
True, but later on they were designed to bend when they connected with the target(shield). This served two purposes;
1. Made the shield heavy and unwieldy causing the holder to drop it thereby losing a vital piece of defense.
2. They were no longer usable, so they didn't come back at the thrower.
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I was never quite sure what to make of this theory since there are simpler ways to accomplish the same goals.

In the viking sagas, it was mentioned that a socketed spear head was held onto the shaft by a pin. It was suitable for use as a spear, but if the owner threw it, he would simply pull out the pin first. This way if the spear was lodged in a shield for example, when they'd try to pull it out the shaft would just come off, so they couldn't throw it back.

I'd have to check the sources again, but I believe the Romans also used another method. The spear head had two flanges that extended down the shaft. Kinda like a socketed head that was only enclosed on two sides. The flanges had two holes through- in the first hole an iron pin was riveted, and the corresponding hole in the wooden shaft was lengthened a bit into a slot. A small wooden pin was inserted through the second hole. On impact, the weight of the shaft was still driving forward, and due to the slot at the iron pin, would slide forward enough to break the wooden pin. Then the whole head was free to swing/flop around so it couldn't be thrown back. But they could be easily collected after battle and reused by simply installing a new wooden peg. This method also used a heck of a lot less iron/steel.
 
TLM said:
Sorry to be a bit late, the Roman Pilum was designed exactly to be thrown at a (semi)stationary object (wooden shield). Quite a few were used during the centuries.

TLM
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the pilum also had a soft neck so that it would bend and so couldnt be thrown BACK at the user.
 
Dave Rishar said:
Talhofer requires suspension of disbelief? How so? Remember, you're looking at a single plate (or possibly two) depicting a technique's beginning, end, and everything in between, with minimal verbiage accompanying it. They make a lot more sense when actually demonstrated or performed. This was probably the goal of a fechtbuch in the first place: to refresh the memory of a student who'd trained with the master, without revealing any secrets to someone not in the know. This continues to frustrate students today as we can't be completely sure that we've interpreted things correctly...............
t.
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i have the book- its cool but a bit like trying to learn KArate by reading a martial arts magazine :(
 
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