Spent a few hours with the Sharpmaked and my ZDP Horn (Inspired by Cliff)

[gunmike1]

Well, it is possible to reprofile a ZDP Jess Horn from the factory bevel to around 7-8 degree per side on a sharpmaker. I was interested after reading Cliff's results with his Jess Horn and got inspired to marr the hell out of the finish of a nice, new, shiny sprint run knife. I sharpened it flat to the stone, to make the angle as thin as possible. I started using cheap diamond pads from Harbor Freight, and those went smooth quickly, taking off a decent amount of the 420 steel but barely budging the ZDP. I then switched to my really cheap hardware store dual sided stone, it's so crappy that the fine and coarse side are indestinquishable, and it didn't do much good either. Being too cheap and impatient to order a DMT XX coarse stone online, and unable to find a cheap SiC stone locally, I went to the best thing available in the house, the diamond sharpmaker rods. I used them as a benchstone in the slots on the back of the 204. It took me probably 3 hours, but the knife is now reprofiled completely. It took forever to get that last bit of steel to get the new bevel all the way to the edge. It surprised me, but the stones still have plenty of bite left in them. They may be expensive, but they definately have some life too them, as they have reprofiled plenty of high carbide stainless and are still kicking. The finished product doesn't look too pretty, but the only thing that concerns me is the cutting ability. I may clean up the scratches on some finer stones and do a little polishing later, but the appearance doesn't bother me nearly as much as I thought it would. I only plan on using this knife for light duty stuff, with cardboard probably being the toughest duty, considering how thin and light the knife is, especially after reprofiling it. The tip is now extremely thin, as the bulges from where the hollow grind and the swedge grind meet have been thinned considerably. The primary grinds were uneven, as one side of the blade is now flat ground down by the choil, with the other side having a hollow still. Anyway, once I reached the edge, I did a few back and forth passes and then a few passes at a slightly elevated angle on the diamond rods to get the edge to form clean and cut off the burr. I then checked the sharpness, and it would shave smoothly and push cut newsprint pretty smoothly, only slightly catching in a few spots. I then proceeded to check the edge retention on a very large cardboard box, and it seemed like it would cut forever without needing to be sharpened. It cut strip after strip after strip, and after some initial dulling it seemed to hit a spot where it had leveled off, still able to cut the cardboard well but not getting much duller. It definately holds an edge better than anything else I own. I can't wait to get a serrated ZDP blade to use as my designated cardboard destroyer, that thing may never lose a working edge.
I am happy with my final result. I will be using a 15 degree microbevel, and I expect good results. There is no chipping so far, so I am very pleased with that. I think I may have to order myself a Falkniven U2 next, after reading Cliff's results with it. I will definately be ordering an X coarse or XX coarse DMT stone before reprofiling like this again, as I'm sure carpel tunnel is in my future if I make a habit of using the sharpmaker for har core reprofiling like this. If the Jess Horn wasn't hollow ground I'm sure I would have given up before finishing. But, the diamond rods did their job, and I'm pretty amazed I didn't wear them smooth doing this. Spyderco has a very high quality product with thier diamond rods. I think they are worth the steep price, considering how well they last, and the fact that most who use them will only be reprofiling to 15 degrees.

 

[Deadhead Archer]

Well, it is possible to reprofile a ZDP Jess Horn from the factory bevel to around 7-8 degree per side on a sharpmaker. I was interested after reading Cliff's results with his Jess Horn and got inspired to marr the hell out of the finish of a nice, new, shiny sprint run knife.

I sharpened it flat to the stone, to make the angle as thin as possible. I started using cheap diamond pads from Harbor Freight, and those went smooth quickly, taking off a decent amount of the 420 steel but barely budging the ZDP. I then switched to my really cheap hardware store dual sided stone, it's so crappy that the fine and coarse side are indestinquishable, and it didn't do much good either.

Being too cheap and impatient to order a DMT XX coarse stone online, and unable to find a cheap SiC stone locally, I went to the best thing available in the house, the diamond sharpmaker rods. I used them as a benchstone in the slots on the back of the 204. It took me probably 3 hours, but the knife is now reprofiled completely. It took forever to get that last bit of steel to get the new bevel all the way to the edge. It surprised me, but the stones still have plenty of bite left in them. They may be expensive, but they definately have some life too them, as they have reprofiled plenty of high carbide stainless and are still kicking. The finished product doesn't look too pretty, but the only thing that concerns me is the cutting ability. I may clean up the scratches on some finer stones and do a little polishing later, but the appearance doesn't bother me nearly as much as I thought it would.

I only plan on using this knife for light duty stuff, with cardboard probably being the toughest duty, considering how thin and light the knife is, especially after reprofiling it. The tip is now extremely thin, as the bulges from where the hollow grind and the swedge grind meet have been thinned considerably. The primary grinds were uneven, as one side of the blade is now flat ground down by the choil, with the other side having a hollow still. Anyway, once I reached the edge, I did a few back and forth passes and then a few passes at a slightly elevated angle on the diamond rods to get the edge to form clean and cut off the burr.

I then checked the sharpness, and it would shave smoothly and push cut newsprint pretty smoothly, only slightly catching in a few spots. I then proceeded to check the edge retention on a very large cardboard box, and it seemed like it would cut forever without needing to be sharpened. It cut strip after strip after strip, and after some initial dulling it seemed to hit a spot where it had leveled off, still able to cut the cardboard well but not getting much duller. It definately holds an edge better than anything else I own.

I can't wait to get a serrated ZDP blade to use as my designated cardboard destroyer, that thing may never lose a working edge. I am happy with my final result. I will be using a 15 degree microbevel, and I expect good results. There is no chipping so far, so I am very pleased with that.

I think I may have to order myself a Falkniven U2 next, after reading Cliff's results with it. I will definately be ordering an X coarse or XX coarse DMT stone before reprofiling like this again, as I'm sure carpel tunnel is in my future if I make a habit of using the sharpmaker for har core reprofiling like this. If the Jess Horn wasn't hollow ground I'm sure I would have given up before finishing. But, the diamond rods did their job, and I'm pretty amazed I didn't wear them smooth doing this. Spyderco has a very high quality product with thier diamond rods. I think they are worth the steep price, considering how well they last, and the fact that most who use them will only be reprofiling to 15 degrees.

Thought that I would help other readers out here

Some pics, if you can get any, would be cool! :thumbup:

 

[gunmike1]

Thought that I would help other readers out here

Some pics, if you can get any, would be cool! :thumbup:

Ask and you shall recieve









The pictures aren't great, but that's all my meager equipment and skills can muster. I have done a little work on the medium sharpmaker stones to improve appearance, but it hasn't really made a noticible difference after only a few minutes. The last pic is looking down at the spine, and it shows just how thin the tip is now, though the shadow kind of obscures it. Before the line where the swedge grind meets the hollow grind used to protrude out quite far on each side near the tip, part of the reason the tip was so obtuse.

 

[Deadhead Archer]

Appearance doesn't look too bad IMO; it's a user and not a safe queen :thumbup:

I am real happy with my ZDP Calypso JR; but I haven't been bold enough to take the edge angles down. Easily my sharpest edge along with my M2 BM 710!

Thanks for the thread! :thumbup:

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I then switched to my really cheap hardware store dual sided stone, it's so crappy that the fine and coarse side are indestinquishable, and it didn't do much good either.

These tend to only work really well on steels which can be filed. You can usually find garden/axe hones which are much more aggressive.

It took forever to get that last bit of steel to get the new bevel all the way to the edge.

Yeah, the more you hone the more you have to hone to move that bevel so much closer to the edge so the honing time increases exponentially towards the very bevel. It can take as much time to get that last little bit of metal removed as it did to basically reduce it to barely visible.

The finished product doesn't look too pretty, but the only thing that concerns me is the cutting ability.

It will get worse as you use it :



As you continue to flatten the profile as the blade is sharpened then the flat starts to smear out the hollow and it turns into a mess. You can even it out by completely flattening it but that is a huge waste of time, it is much better to actually deepen the hollow but that is pretty time consuming with hand stones. Note the above knife has take many sharpenings. It has literally cut many km of carboard in stock trials and has been sharpened completely from 5% to 100% dozens of times. It would likely take years of actual normal use to get to that point.

The primary grinds were uneven, as one side of the blade is now flat ground down by the choil, with the other side having a hollow still.

Yeah this confuses people all the time as they sharpen and the bevels get uneven and they think it was something they did. It is very rare based on what I have seen to see really even grinds and any extensive regrinding of the edge or primary tends to expose the assymmetry.

I will be using a 15 degree microbevel, and I expect good results. There is no chipping so far, so I am very pleased with that.

That should be very durable outside of metals. The U2 is a really nice knife too. If you want to really see what it is capable of, ask Krein to regrind it like he did mine. It will make as much as a difference again as the modification you did to the Horn.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

"You can usually find garden/axe hones which are much more aggressive."

Cliff, I looked everywhere from home depot to lowes to tru value and haven't been able to find anyone carrying a good extra coarse hone, I even asked specifically for axe hones. Maybe I need to check the garden area of the stores, maybe they have the stones there.

"As you continue to flatten the profile as the blade is sharpened then the flat starts to smear out the hollow and it turns into a mess. You can even it out by completely flattening it but that is a huge waste of time, it is much better to actually deepen the hollow but that is pretty time consuming with hand stones. Note the above knife has take many sharpenings. It has literally cut many km of carboard in stock trials and has been sharpened completely from 5% to 100% dozens of times. It would likely take years of actual normal use to get to that point."

Yeah, it will take a while for mine to look like that. However, the non picture side is the one that is already flat ground by the choil, and it already has the beginnings of looking a little like yours.

"That should be very durable outside of metals"

That is what I was thinking, I'll just have to look real close for staples in the boxes I cut. I can easily see a large chip in my future if I happen to whack one.

"The U2 is a really nice knife too. If you want to really see what it is capable of, ask Krein to regrind it like he did mine. It will make as much as a difference again as the modification you did to the Horn."

After I get mine I'll have to get in contact with him. Any chance you could PM me some info so I can get his contact info and price? If I remember right you were able to get the primary down under 4 degrees on that one, that's pretty damn thin. I imagine you just have to make sure you don't ham fist it and try to twist it out of tough cuts, which I try to avoid in general even on my regular pocket knives. Based on your work, it looks like that combo is the cardboard king for plain edges.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I looked everywhere from home depot to lowes to tru value and haven't been able to find anyone carrying a good extra coarse hone, I even asked specifically for axe hones. Maybe I need to check the garden area of the stores, maybe they have the stones there.

They usually are not sold for knives but all the hardware store locally have them. You can also just use very coarse sandpaper. Even if you don't want to buy a belt sander, the belts for them make pretty nice coarse hones. Take a 2" wide low grit belt (80 at maximum) and cut it into sections and glue/staple it to a piece of hardwood. That is pretty much more coarse than any hone you are likely to find and the belts are cheap and make quite a few hones and you will not wear out even one grinding down a folder either.

However, the non picture side is the one that is already flat ground by the choil, and it already has the beginnings of looking a little like yours.

Note you can get Krein to hollow that back out as well so it looks just like new again. In general this is how those types of knives are tuned. After a lot of sharpening you will end up removing the hollow grind so you then have it ground back in. This keeps you from having to plane down a flat when you sharpen and also raises the cutting ability in most cases, though does reduce the scope of work over the full flat version which is more stable in twisting.

I'll just have to look real close for staples in the boxes I cut. I can easily see a large chip in my future if I happen to whack one.

Yes, I took a few pieces out of the edge of my small Sebenza in that manner, I hit a small finish nail carving up a piece of hardwood, took out piece easily visibly at arms length. I usually carry another knife for that type of work. Just buy a Byrd and give it the same treatment. They are so inexpensive that who cares if you use it out in a few years due to occasional chips.

I imagine you just have to make sure you don't ham fist it and try to twist it out of tough cuts...

Yes, no lateral loads on the really thin hollow ground blades, you will leave a piece of the primary grind in the material. Drop me an email with your address and I'll send you the mod-U2 so you can test run it. There are some other things I want to look at with it, but I will be busy with other things for at least a year and don't be concerned about any incidental damage during use.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

Even if you don't want to buy a belt sander, the belts for them make pretty nice coarse hones. Take a 2" wide low grit belt (80 at maximum) and cut it into sections and glue/staple it to a piece of hardwood. That is pretty much more coarse than any hone you are likely to find and the belts are cheap and make quite a few hones and you will not wear out even one grinding down a folder either.

I think I will try this. Sounds like a really cheap and easy way to get what I want. Plus, it might actually give me the push I need to get a belt sander.

Note you can get Krein to hollow that back out as well so it looks just like new again. In general this is how those types of knives are tuned. After a lot of sharpening you will end up removing the hollow grind so you then have it ground back in. This keeps you from having to plane down a flat when you sharpen and also raises the cutting ability in most cases, though does reduce the scope of work over the full flat version which is more stable in twisting.

Considering how much tougher the sharpening was getting as I went I really think getting it hollowed back out will be of great benefit for the sharpening alone. The slightly better cutting ability is a nice bonus.

Yes, I took a few pieces out of the edge of my small Sebenza in that manner, I hit a small finish nail carving up a piece of hardwood, took out piece easily visibly at arms length. I usually carry another knife for that type of work. Just buy a Byrd and give it the same treatment. They are so inexpensive that who cares if you use it out in a few years due to occasional chips.

I have a G-10 Cara Cara already that takes care of the tough work for me. Even though it is extremely cheap in price, the knife works so good I still hesitate to do really stupid things to it. It just performs a lot better than a $20 knife should. It's only had really minor chips that are pretty much gone after doing a slight reprofile to around 10 degrees on the Sharpmaker diamond hones. In fact, I like it so much I'm about to order another one so I can sharpen this one flat to the stone to see how the 8Cr13MoV handles a really thin angle.

Yes, no lateral loads on the really thin hollow ground blades, you will leave a piece of the primary grind in the material. Drop me an email with your address and I'll send you the mod-U2 so you can test run it. There are some other things I want to look at with it, but I will be busy with other things for at least a year and don't be concerned about any incidental damage during use.

E-mail on the way. I'm really grateful and flattered for the opportunity to try it out. If you could find a way to mail your sharpening skills to me then I would really be in luck! In all seriousness, I really appreciate the work you do and how much you are willing to pass on your knowledge. I know I have learned a hell of a lot in the last few months about knives and sharpening from you (and others) on the forum.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Plus, it might actually give me the push I need to get a belt sander.

If you have a place to put one I would highly recommend it. I don't use it for sharpening, but it sure makes regrinding much easier. However if you attempt to grind really thin like in the above then be very careful because once you really cut the bevel down it gets very easy to overheat the edge especially when you are on the platen.

I really think getting it hollowed back out will be of great benefit for the sharpening alone.

Yes, that's the main reason it is done.

Even though it is extremely cheap in price, the knife works so good I still hesitate to do really stupid things to it.

I'll include a small Byrd I reground similar which you can use to see just what you can cut and how before the edge fails.

If you could find a way to mail your sharpening skills ...

If I could do that then I'd have had Clark send me his years ago. It actually don't take much skill once you look at it in a scientific manner and eliminate all the witchcraft. If you use a small magnifier, 10X is enough, it removes most of the common problems.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

If you have a place to put one I would highly recommend it. I don't use it for sharpening, but it sure makes regrinding much easier. However if you attempt to grind really thin like in the above then be very careful because once you really cut the bevel down it gets very easy to overheat the edge especially when you are on the platen.

Hopefully soon I will have room for one. By the way, what kind of belt should I get to make my improvised bench stone? At the store I was at there were plenty of coarse aluminum oxide ones (60-80 grit), but the coarsest I found for Silica Carbide was 220 grit.

I'll include a small Byrd I reground similar which you can use to see just what you can cut and how before the edge fails.

Thanks, much appreciated.

If I could do that then I'd have had Clark send me his years ago. It actually don't take much skill once you look at it in a scientific manner and eliminate all the witchcraft. If you use a small magnifier, 10X is enough, it removes most of the common problems.

You would think after all of my Engineering & Physics classes that I took I would look at knife sharpening in a scientific matter, but I still thought of it as witchcraft until I started practicing and learning from this site. Once I started doing it more and paying attention to what was going on with a loupe it was like the light bulb went off in my head. Now my problem is getting my hands to do what the mind knows it should. Eliminating the burr is my problem now, and too often I have to cut straight into the stone to eliminate it and start over. Maybe I need to find a better way to clean my sharpmaker hones (I use comet and a scouring pad with some water), because nothing is more frustrating than flip flopping a burr when you raise the angle to a point where it should just be cut off. It's frustrating, but with time I should continue to get better. Of course, even at my limited skill range all of my friends and family want me to sharpen thier knives because they are amazed how sharp I get them, but after seeing what Spyderco can do I know I have a long way to go.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

At the store I was at there were plenty of coarse aluminum oxide ones (60-80 grit), but the coarsest I found for Silica Carbide was 220 grit.

Get the aluminum oxide, press fairly hard but don't go right to the edge because at that grit it will tear bit pieces out of it at low angles and unless you want to leave it with that micro-serrated edge it wastes too much metal.

Eliminating the burr is my problem now, and too often I have to cut straight into the stone to eliminate it and start over.

Some steels like 154CM are fairly horrible to sharpen for many reasons, primarily because they are soft with a huge carbide fraction and worse yet very inconsistent in composition. Probably one of the better production stainless would be Benchmades AUS-8A as they are running it at 60 HRC and it has a low carbide volume and a fine grain due to the vanadium. I have not used it yet, but it has most of the characterictistics you want in a high sharpenability stainless. A larger stone contact area also makes things much easier, it is near impossible to not get a deformation burr on a round rod for example. You may simply trying to do something exceptionally hard by combining a really hard to sharpen steel with a low area contact hone. It is also a lot easier to get burr free edges on coarse hones simply because the ease they cut off metals so it is less frustrating to refine technique there. Just keep in mind what you are trying to achieve, which is usually minimizing deformation and maximizing abrasion, and adjust accordingly.

Maybe I need to find a better way to clean my sharpmaker hones ...

Oven cleaner takes off the metal very easily.

-Cliff

 

[cbwx34]

Hopefully soon I will have room for one. By the way, what kind of belt should I get to make my improvised bench stone? At the store I was at there were plenty of coarse aluminum oxide ones (60-80 grit), but the coarsest I found for Silica Carbide was 220 grit.

I learned recently there's a couple different types of AO belts made... 'open' and 'closed'. Open are made for wood, have only about 50-70% grit coverage, will wear out quickly (on metal), and are designed not to clog. Closed have 100% coverage, and are designed for metal removal. If you're finding them at a standard hardware store, and they're not marked otherwise, they're probably open.

cbw

 

[kel_aa]

Probably one of the better production stainless would be Benchmades AUS-8A as they are running it at 60 HRC and it has a low carbide volume and a fine grain due to the vanadium.

For propriety shouldn't the lower figure be noted too since it is given, namely 58-60. Camillus apparently was/is close with 57-59. Ref: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4034603&postcount=8

 

[sodak]

Of course, even at my limited skill range all of my friends and family want me to sharpen thier knives because they are amazed how sharp I get them, but after seeing what Spyderco can do I know I have a long way to go.

That should be my signature line!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

For propriety shouldn't the lower figure be noted too since it is given, namely 58-60.

I asked on the Benchmade forum and a number of them were tested and they were 60 HRC. You would expect some variance around that number of course.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

Well, I ordered an X coarse DMT stone from New Graham today. The hardware store I was at only had the open grit belts for wood, so I figured screw it and paid the $30 and should have the stone by Thursday. That should speed up my reprofiling, and should make a couple of my AUS 6 beaters into some decent cardboard cutters with the toothy finish it gives. When I save a little more I think I will get the fine DMT, and use the sharpmaker if I want to go with a finer grit and for touch ups. I must say that I do feel a lot more confident with benchstones now, so I may cut a couple wood blocks at various angles to lay the benchstones on as a jig until I get the feel for the angles so I can be consistent when the stone is flat on the table.
I would like to try out the Benchmade AUS 8 at 60 HRC, it should be much better than my CRKT's AUS 8 as far as sharpening. That is the knife I chase the burr the worst with, and I think it is only in the 57 HRC range. My VG-10 Spydercos get very sharp, but I do have to deburr often. It's seems to be all about balancing using enough pressure to get abrasion without having enough pressure to deform it. Again, I think I just need more practice and to spend more time getting the stones extremely clean so they cut good with little pressure.
I sent my R2 off to Ben Dale to see what a really sharp polished edge feels like, as I am also considering the edge pro apex and he offers a demo sharpening. I can get a good benchmark for sharpness there to shoot for. As it is I can get pushcuts on newsprint about 1.5" out from where I hold with the Sharpmaker, I'm hoping to get out to 3", like my R2 was from the factory. I may never reach that skill level, but it's always fun to practice, experiment, and challenge myself anyway.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have found CRK&T to be one of the worst steels to sharpen in AUS-4/8, it is very difficult to get the edge to form clean. The main issue is to get the edge very crisp on the coarse hones because it is very time consuming and difficult to try to remove them on the finer stones. You have it exactly right regarding pressure/abrasion, that tends to be the main issue and is why diamond hones tend to be fairly nice because they cut with little pressure. However waterstones tend to produce little to no burr, ceramics will produce a significant burr readily. Ben also sets a pretty high standard of sharpness, good for a reference point, it would be very impressive if you could match it.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

I know that Ben Dale will be like Spyderco to me, sharpness levels that I would like to attain but never will. It never hurts to have lofty goals, though, and first hand experience with their handywork lets you know what is really possible when you are insanely skilled at sharpening.

I love how simple and quick the sharpmaker is, and the sharpness you can get is great. I had my ego feeling pretty good about my sharpening on it until I got the $10 60-100X lit microscope at radio shack. I then saw that what I thought were clean edges were actually slightly burred. The knives shaved evenly on both sides, could push cut newsprint, and had decent edge retention, but obviously they could be a lot better with a truly clean edge. Since the contact area is so small on the sharpmaker, and the rods are ceramic, I guess those are 2 factors that lead to those (like me) without the greatest hand eye coordination to have a tough time avoiding burrs when I'm having an off day.
After talking to Ben Dale and looking at the reviews here I think the edge pro may be the ticket for me. Waterstones to minimize burr formation, plus idiotproofing the angle consistency issues (it would satisfy the perfectionist in me, I think). It is a lot of money, though, so I'll see how the DMT benchstones treat me and go from there. It would be a good thing anyway to have an edge pro, sharpmaker, and high quality diamond and waterstones, along with a belt sander. It's just a matter of collecting that stuff over time without my wife beating me. She thinks I'm insane for having the limited arsenel of sharpening equipment I already have.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I then saw that what I thought were clean edges were actually slightly burred.

Yes, that is probably the most valuable piece of equipment you can have for eliminating problems. You can usually spot them by eye if you tilt the edge around with light but the magnifier removes any guesswork about the conditions of the edge.

The knives shaved evenly on both sides, could push cut newsprint ...

Yeah, after awhile you will get to the point where you sharpen knives when they can't do that, not something you aim for in the beginning.

Since the contact area is so small on the sharpmaker, and the rods are ceramic, I guess those are 2 factors that lead to those (like me) without the greatest hand eye coordination to have a tough time avoiding burrs when I'm having an off day.

Yes, many times the best option is to just cut the burr off directly and just try very lightly to alternate until the edge forms again. If you want to have a real challenge then try to get a crisp edge on the corners alone with something like 154CM.

-Cliff

 

[me2]

I have tried some of BM's AUS-8 at the higher hardness on an Ambush from their red series. Even on a belt sander, a difference is noticable. The edge was very crisp, and after stropping on the loaded leather on the sander, it would sort of ring when scraped sideways, although I suspect this was more to do with geometry than anything else. I would love to try one for myself, since the other was sharpened for friend. Byrd knives are very attractive for the price. What hardness do they use?

For years I used just a course India (Norton Aluminum Oxide) on wood blocks cut at angles 3 degrees less than the Sharpmaker (12 and 17 degrees), then did the final polish on the Sharpmaker. After I figured out that hair whittling edges were possible on the white stones, even the brown stones if careful, I began paying more attention while using the stones and especially with the pressure used. I rarely use the corners anymore due to the burr issue. Of course for serrated edges, they are the only way to go.