Spheroidize Annealed Steels

Natlek, it's difficult for me to understand what you're saying. Are you saying that you are satisfied with the performance and grain structure of the steel you're using? Is there any way you can improve on the photo showing grain structure? My first thought is that it doesn't look very fine, however it's hard to say from that photo.

I tried hundreds of times, this is the best I can , sorry . I compared with a steel from broken ball bearing, this is more fine . This is my first knive from this kind of anealed bought 52100 steel, we'll see how it will be when I finish knive .For now I like what I see. I can tomorrow go to measure the hardness if necessary, but file barely catches , I know it's ok with hardness ...

PS . Next blank I'll try with three normalization .... and I will compare with this .HT same procedure.Hardening is done in professional industrial furnace in my friend machine shop by skill worker ....
 
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Natlek, thank you for the clarification. I agree, without the proper tools, capturing good photos is NOT easy!!!



This is a shot from a .295" thick sample of Crucible CPM-4v, heat treated as-received:


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100% crop of the above image:


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Natlek, it's difficult for me to understand what you're saying. Are you saying that you are satisfied with the performance and grain structure of the steel you're using? Is there any way you can improve on the photo showing grain structure? My first thought is that it doesn't look very fine, however it's hard to say from that photo.



Here I tried again , this time holding camera with both hands and through a magnifying glass .And I think it can be better seen this time ......... ?

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From a productivity point of view: The steel shall come in the best shape according to our workflow, to get a satisfactory final product every time, with each steel batch.

From a "custom" approach, a quest to max performance: The main point is to know our steel...how that specific batch will behave. The steps and efforts necessary to get the best out of it are comprised within the different approach.... and if we'll find ourselves the batch of steel is actually "ready to go" from the mill it won't make us sad ;)

As Kevin Cashen pointed out, if you find the right steel buy as much as you can afford and tune your HT to that specific batch, instead of finding the sweet spots every time.
Annealing conditions are but a part of the variabilty, alloying moves between specs ranges...
 
Here is how I see this issue. One steel vendor sells steel that is coarsely spheroidized. This steel is extremely soft, softer than it needs to be for most of us, but guys who use CNC may really really like the benefit of it being super soft. However, if one were doing stock removal only, and went to harden it (without normalizing regimen...using the standard single quench....like we would heat treat O1 received from Sheffield for example), the resulting hardness would be around 63HRC, about 4 or 5 points lower than it "should" be. How will you know if you achieved 67HRC without a Rockwell tester? Some files would skate on 63-64. And if you were to break the sample to check grain size...it could be extremely fine. But you're 4 points lower than you should be. Hence, the normalizing routine to break up the carbide networks and free up the carbon, to achieve what we're after....66-67HRC+. This adds time/energy to the product. The normalizing heat takes care of carbide structure, but at the possible expense of aus grain size, so we usually thermal cycle a few times to take care of the aus grain. That's usually 4 or more cycles added to a hardening operation.

The other steel vendor sells the same steel/steels, but he orders them fine spheroidized. It's soft enough to grind, soft enough to file, but maybe not QUITE as easy on tooling as coarse spheroidized. Maybe it is 22HRC instead of 19HRC (total guess here). But this steel is ready to harden as received. No need for normalizing/cycling. It reaches max hardness out of quench with the standard heat treat (heat, soak, quench, temper). One hardening operation without the normalizing and subsequent aus grain refining.

However, we as knife makers should be aware of how to work the steels we receive. Glad to see this thread.
 
If for no other reason, I still triple cycle (Stacy's method) my 52100 simply because there's so much less distortion and warping during hardening.
It's exponentially easier to take a normalized blade to the anvil and tap it a few times to straight with a brass hammer, and not have to worry about it again, than to have to jig it up and hope for improvement during temper cycles, which usually involves going a little hotter than I really want to.
 
Samuraistuart summarized it very well!! :thumbup:

There is one steel that i use but i don't like to normalize, it is 1.2519. It contains W and i don't want to risk to have the carbon stolen in blobs of MC carbides. Once formed they won't let go until almost melting temperature, so i prefer to trust the mill ;)
 
To the pictures of the fracture surfaces, what you are seeing is not the steel microstructure. Those are brittle fracture facets, and each facet does not necessarily correspond to a single grain.

The microstructure of steel, especially that of tempered martensite, is very fine. You will not be able to see it without a microscope.
 
Without stated/spec spheroidized diameter per specific batch assay, fine & coarse are range #s (relative to what, really?). SC dia heavily depend on Carbon density (easier to envision than in % or volume%) and annealing process temp+time. So, wouldn't it make sense to control/set SC to certain/baseline according to & control by you? Also should consider SC distribution determine by prior aust grain -> aha, good to control prior aust grain before roll your own fine SC, right ;)

SPNKr is right about fractured facets aren't grain. 'Cluster of grain' - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-good-grain-look-like?p=16113310#post16113310

Stezann - I haven't work with 1.2519 but done a few blue#2. I found, normalize+grain refine cycles are tricky to do for blue#2. Grain grow and carbides deposit in gb more/less permanent after high normalize temp(900c/1650f). There is plenty of carbon avail for mart matrix but excess MC can lead to coarse grain + ugly gb. Recently I threw away 3 blue#2 blades due to mondo (coarse would = under stated) grain & very weird gb. Plus their hrc were 66+ after 204c/400F tempered.
 
Perhaps true & applicable for general purpose/population suited for narrow hardening procedures/params. However, what if one wants reset SC & prior aust grain to certain tailored size before hardening? I've worked out O1 ht sequence but more tinkering is needed for blue#2.

No need to normalize 1.2519 or 1.2442 if you're doing stock removal only. It's like O1 as received.
 
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