Spotlight on Non-Metallic Knives... Ominous

Joined
Jan 17, 1999
Messages
539
You knew it couldn't take long.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-101801knives.story

Nonmetallic Knives Defy Heightened Air Security

Security experts say composite- and ceramic-bladed knives, which are as sharp and strong as normal metal knives, are difficult to detect by airport screeners.

By ERIC MALNIC and RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Times Staff Writers

Airport security in the United States, strengthened to repel terrorists since last month, may still be no match for the Busse Stealth Hawk knife, marketed in a weapons catalog as "invisible to metal detectors."

Always nice to name the mfg...

The knife is among a class of composite and ceramic blades that are difficult or impossible to detect with current airport security equipment, according to security experts and knife manufacturers.
Such knives, sold openly and legally through retail stores, mail-order catalogs and on the Internet, expose a major loophole in the efforts to prevent a repeat of the Sept. 11 terrorist hijackings, which apparently were executed with small cutters and knives previously thought harmless.

Don't worry Miss...We are just using the new Millimeter Wave Detector...

Since the attacks, the Federal Aviation Administration has rescinded its old rule allowing knives with blades shorter than 4 inches aboard flights. Now, "cutting instruments of any kind and composition," either carried by passengers or in their carry-on luggage, are prohibited.

But enforcing that new rule relies on equipment that is largely ineffective against nonmetallic knives that are as sharp and as hard as steel. FAA officials acknowledge the system's vulnerability to plastic weapons, but also insist security nevertheless is adequate.
Congressional and Bush administration officials have suggested that terrorists may have carried plastic weapons when they took over the four jetliners by attacking the flight crews, though whether they were using anything like the brawny Stealth Hawk is unknown.

The Stealth Hawk is made from a high-tech, nonmetallic laminate known as MP45. Its 4½-inch, serrated blade is so strong it can be "pounded through steel drums, car doors, wood planks, etc. without damage," according to the description in a catalog issued by Shomer-Tec, a mail-order firm in Bellingham, Wash.

The purchase and possession of the Stealth Hawk and other "undetectable" knives like it are perfectly legal in most states, including California. No license, special permit or identification is needed to purchase one. To get a Stealth Hawk, a customer need only mail off a check for $137, plus a $7 handling fee, and Shomer-Tec will ship it via United Parcel Service.

Some people wonder why. Many of us know why and view it as a right

"There is no place in our society for a weapon like this," said Jim Hall,an apparent ass, former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board. "Shame on the person who is marketing this. He puts all of us at risk."

Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.), chairman of the House subcommittee on aviation, said last week that the hijackers "may have been armed with hardened plastic knives in addition to the box cutters reported by a passenger on one of the planes." "Unfortunately," Mica said, "screening technology required by the FAA does not detect plastic weapons." A spokesman for Mica said his remarks were "based on information provided in a briefing by the administration."
Three weeks earlier, Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta said: "For the first time, we had a commercial airliner turned into a lethal weapon. People boarded with plastic knives that can be as sharp as metal knives." Mineta has subsequently declined further comment on the issue.

Trexler said that FAA Administrator Jane Garvey "believes we have adequate security in place right now, given the heightened threats, but we will be looking at systems constantly to see how they might be improved."
Trexler said one of these is a "back-scatter" probe that uses harmless, low-level radiation to paint a detailed picture of what a passenger might be carrying beneath clothing.

There are not believed to be any federal laws regulating undetectable knives.

The California Penal Code specifically prohibits the manufacture and sale--but not the purchase or possession--of any undetectable knife.
As defined by the code, "an 'undetectable knife" means any knife or other instrument, with or without a hand guard, that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death that is commercially manufactured to be used as a weapon and is not detectable by a metal detector set at standard calibration."
Plastic knives have a history of use in attacks in courthouses, prisons and other public facilities across the country, though there is no known evidence that they have become a staple in the arsenals of terrorists. A defendant in a Compton courtroom used a 10-inch plastic knife two years ago to stab two bailiffs before he was shot and killed by a deputy.

Jeff Jaffe, president of Shomer-Tec, concedes that his firm markets the Stealth Hawk as a knife that a person could slip though existing security systems. "One could do that," he said. But he and Jerry Busse, whose firm in Wauseon, Ohio, makes the Stealth Hawk, insist that there is a legitimate need for such weapons.

"Police and [Drug Enforcement Administration] undercover 'buy-and-bust' teams need protection, and they know that drug dealers use metal detectors," Busse said. Jaffe added, "In some states, like Washington, there are laws against carrying a firearm into a bar. In some bars, there are walk-through metal detectors. Undercover alcohol enforcement guys want some means of protecting themselves in places like that."
Jaffe said Shomer-Tec will continue to sell undetectable knives, but another mail-order firm has had second thoughts. "Due to the recent horrific terrorist acts perpetrated on our country, we have decided to temporarily stop the sale of undetectable knives," Irv Miller, president of J & L Self-Defense in Berkeley Springs, W.Va., announced two weeks ago on the company's Web site.

"I am not a politically correct kind of guy, but I feel that for right now, it would be best not to sell them for a little while," Miller said when asked about his decision.

Miller insists that the Stealth Hawk poses no more threat than a sharpened stick and says it was not designed to be used against a person.

"It was designed primarily as a non-rusting knife that could be used by scuba divers under water," he said. "The other use is for bomb squad technicians who would be dealing with munitions that could be set off if there is a change in the magnetic fields around them."
But other undetectable knives clearly were designed primarily as weapons, including Shomer-Tec's CIA Covert Cutter, which "can be clipped directly to a belt, pants, sock, etc.," the catalog says, and the Deep Cover Knife, described as "a must-have for those on the move."

Before they were temporarily pulled off the market a few days ago, J & L sold several particularly lethal models, including the CIA Knife, the CIA Spike and the CIA Finger Grip Knife, also known as the "Heart Attack." The J & L catalog also includes the now temporarily discontinued Stealth Security Comb and Brush Set.

"Made from undetectable nylon fiber, these security items are a must for every woman's purse or glove box," the catalog says. "They look like a normal 8-inch comb or hairbrush until you pull them apart to expose the 3 2/3-inch blade."

The comb-and-brush set appears to violate laws in California and other states that prohibit the possession of knives disguised to appear as something other than weapons. In addition, the Stealth Hawk, CIA Covert Cutter, Deep Cover Knife and the weapons in the J & L catalog are too big to be carried out of sight without violating state concealed-weapons laws.

Ernest Emerson, designer of the undetectable Deep Cover Knife, asked Miller a few days ago to stop advertising the 10 3/8-inch weapon in the Shomer-Tec catalog. Miller complied and the knife no longer appears in the online catalog, though it is still listed in Shomer-Tec's printed catalog.

"I felt that with what's been going on, it probably would be best to discontinue that weapon," said Emerson, whose Emerson Knives Inc. is located in Torrance. Emerson makes and sells a variety of metallic knives, but no undetectable knives. Deep Cover, designed by Emerson for Shomer-Tec, was manufactured by a machine shop in Washington state.

Although often referred to as plastic knives, most of the undetectable weapons actually are made from laminates that contain glass fibers, nylon, epoxy resins and other nonplastic materials. These durable laminates--originally developed for electronic circuit boards used in harsh environments--have little use in other products, according to Derek Russell, sales manager for Emerson.

There also are stores that sell smaller, nonmetallic knives that can be hidden legally in almost any pocket.

One of these stores is Ross Cutlery in downtown Los Angeles.
Pedro Perez, a 15-year employee at Ross, showed a visitor the Puma Ceramik, a compact folding knife made in Germany. He pointed out that the only metal parts in the $210 knife--which has a razor-sharp, 3-inch ceramic blade that folds into a plastic handle of the same length--are two tiny titanium rivets.

Two customers who fly frequently told him they have carried Puma Ceramiks frequently through airport security systems without detection, Perez said.

He then produced the even smaller Boker Ceramic folding knife, also made in Germany. When folded, the Boker is about 2½ inches long and half an inch thick. The only metallic component is a titanium spring that locks the open blade in place.

"It's very light, very convenient," said Perez, who owns one.
He said he carried the knife in his pocket through a metal detection device at an Immigration and Naturalization Service office in Los Angeles recently.

"The thing didn't beep," he said.

Don't worry man. Next time you get on a plane they will give you a real prodding. "Why yes officer I am the one who confessed to breaking federal law in a national publication and made knife owners look like skulking goats
 
Why the asumption that the hijackers carried plastic knives?

Following is a small list of things you can find in my dresser drawer that were perfectly legal prior to 9/11:
Spyderco Delica
Spyderco Rookie
Spyderco Dragonfly
Cammillus Cyber CUDA
CRKT Lg. Mirage
CRKt sm. Mirage
Cold Steel Voyager
Gerber EZ-Out
Meyerco Speedster
Junglee Marshall Jr.
Victorinox Tinker
Multi-Tool

My point is, everyone is trying to blame this on a "breakdown of airport security". I maintain that the hijackers carried NOTHING ILLEGAL onto the plane. Box cutters? Perfectly legal. Any of the above? Again, perfectly legal. Does anyone doubt that any of the above could be used with even more effect than a flimsy box cutter?

The weapon here was the novelty of the act. Who expects it??? Perhaps there were legally 'armed' passengers, who were waiting for a better time to act, like after the plane had landed or the hijackers were fatigued and off-guard? The PA passengers acted quickly after finding out they were likely headed for a very abrupt and final 'landing'. We'll never know.
 
Originally posted by RH
Why the asumption that the hijackers carried plastic knives?....
My point is, everyone is trying to blame this on a "breakdown of airport security". I maintain that the hijackers carried NOTHING ILLEGAL onto the plane.....The weapon here was the novelty of the act.....

Excellent points, RH.

How many members do we have now - over 10,000? If someone posts the correct mailing address here for the FAA and EACH of our 10,000 members sends them a letter with similar comments to yours, at least they will get the hint that some of us might actually disagree with their knee-jerk reactions.

Some knife knuts disdainfully call non-knife people "sheeple". But who are the real "sheeple" - if not those who make no attempt at letting their displeasure be known.

Get me that address! My pen, my paper, my envelope are ready. For the price of a stamp, MY voice WILL be heard.
 
For US government information, go to FirstGov.

The FAA is available online and you can write them:

For official business with the FAA, write to:
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Ave, SW
Washington, DC 20591
 
damn fools.

I understand perfectly that they want to keep an airplane safe, and clear of weapons. And that they'll try a lot harder after WTC incident.

But... someone carrying her needlepoint stuff on board, like an old lady, probably has some of them darn big 10 inch needles which are like 1/4 thick. give them to someone who knows a bit about human anatomy, and I think it'll be quit easy to kill someone.

The only way to stop people from carrying G-10 or other knives on board of airplanes is to frisk them all. Imagine the delays...

You could also make everyone undress, but that would not be ethical.
and you'd have people lining up for becoming airport security :D

Somebody tell those fools they cannot stop people carrying knives on board. and make sure they think about the fact that there are at least a few dozen things onboard of a plane that I can use as a weapon.

greetz & take care, Bart.
 
Actually, Bart, undressing someone is essentially what that millimeter wave radar does. It "sees" through clothes using very short wave-length radiation.

This whole situation seems like one of those instances where if maybe a few people besides terrorists on that plane had been armed, some of this tragedy could have been averted.
 
The article is written in the same manner, and with the same tone, as those articles written by helpless hoplophobes who can't understand why it's legal for a citizen of the United States to buy a handgun without signing over his children, passing a Mind Probe, slaying a dragon, taking out a second mortgage on his parents' ancestral home, and promising to keep that handgun sealed in plastic, wrapped in packing tape, locked in an iron box, and buried in the back yard surrounded by barbed wire enclosing feral dogs, the enclosure and the ammunition for the handgun separated by at least 100 meters at all times.

Weapons have a place in a free society. Sheeple can't grasp that concept. This article drips with false incredulity and implied "solutions" to the "problem."
 
well F**K!!!!a green rubber duck...:(

:mad: :( :eek: :mad: :( :eek: :barf:

*steps up on soap box*

As someone who has a decent amount of experiance owning and making non-metallic knives I am SICKENED and DISGUSTED and SCARED about this...

I will admit, I saw this coming on 9/12/01 when they(the media) started focusing on the "weapons of terror" (their term).

I have made a few G-10 knives, a couple neck knives, a couple push daggers, and the oddity of them all, a G-10 fighting hatchet.

When I do get set-up/experianced enough as a knife maker so that I can feel comfortable selling my blades, it has been my plan to offer non-metallic blades.

They ARE NOT illegal! What I do IS NOT illegal! And I am going to continue to make G-10 knives. Actually I think I will place an order for G-10 today and get a head start on all this, and maybe I'll have some stuff I can sell, just to flip the immortal finger at the L.A. Times and all the other liberal news media.

My father and I were talking just now, I had him read the L.A. times article, and he thinks that the actions of Ernest Emerson and others who have pulled non-metallic knives, are the correct ones. he feels now is the time to lay really low.
I totally disagree!
Now is the time to keep up business as usuall, no more, definatly no less. Keep on grinding. We (the industry) has never been voal about our non-metallics, fine,t hats good, we have a specific consumer audience, those who need these things know about them and those who dont, dont. (or untilt he media blathering against them hits a high)

Its time for this industry, the whole knife industry, to rally around the non-metallics, to support them, and to go on not making a big deal out of them publically.
Its a good thing to remain as we have been, out of sight, and keeping quiet about non-metallics, but I dont think now is the time to stop making them or to pull them from their selective market.

I also think that at this time, it would be a mistake to start PUBLICALLY making a big deal if you do pull them. That makes them illicit, that makes them ahve the "switchblade quality" about them, that certain romantic (in the true sense of the word) illicitness to them that makes all the gang bangers and criminal element demand them.


Yes, I do think severe furvor and outcrying over this issue will do more damage than harm.
Before 9/11 John Q. Public and Mary Jane Citizen didnt know about non-metallic knives...
Sure, maybe they had seen those JUNK zytel knives or something, but the high specialization knives, like the Busse Stealth Hawk, like the Emerson designed G-10 knife, like the G-10 blades I have made, Like the Mad Dog Freuquent Flyers, like the Perrin G-10 La Griffe, Like the M.D. Ceramic Knives, those type of knives were un-knowns to the majority.
They have always been targeted at a select group of ppl, those who need them know about them, and those who dont, dont. PERIOD.

If a major media stink gets raised over this, then those who DONT need them, will suddenly know about them.
The specialized target coonsumer "locale", of high risk security professionals, police, military and ordinary defensively minded and responsible citizens, will suddenly be ovver-run by gang bangers, punks and members of the criminal element who want these things.
The news media will be creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of these things being the choice weapons for criminals....and they will do that by bringing the attention of the criminal element to these knives.

Lets keep our non-metallics expensive, like the Stealh Hawk, like the Freuquent Flyers, and so on.
Lets downplay the zytel things, the ceap ones, or raise the prices on them.

Lets try to stop this "media war" against non-metallic knives in its tracks.
But at the same time, lets keep to business as usuall. Always have been out of sight of the general public.
Always have had a specialized market for these things.
Lets keep it that way Ladies and Gentlemen.
 
Originally posted by SammyB
Ernest Emerson, designer of the undetectable Deep Cover Knife, asked Miller a few days ago to stop advertising the 10 3/8-inch weapon in the Shomer-Tec catalog...

"I felt that with what's been going on, it probably would be best to discontinue that weapon," said Emerson, whose Emerson Knives Inc. is located in Torrance.

:( :confused: :( :confused: :(
 
Originally posted by Esav Benyamin
...The FAA is available online and you can write them:

For official business with the FAA, write to:
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Ave, SW
Washington, DC 20591

Thanks EB! My own letter of displeasure to the FAA (snailMAILED, not emailed) will be in the mail tomorrow morning.

I challenge EVERY member here to do the same.

If you can rant and rave about this injustice by typing a six-paragraph post into these forums, you can also scribble a few words of coherent displeasure on a piece of paper. Then invest in a stamp and MAIL it to the FAA. (A thousand email messages to the FAA website can be deleted with a single click; a few hundred letters sent to their offices might even get noticed.)

Will it make a difference? Maybe. Maybe not. Probably not. But at least you can say you raised your hand to be counted.
 
In my experience when things get bent out of shape like this its hard if not impossible to straighten them back out. Opening the thick plastic wrap on a box of cinnamon rolls with the 1" blade on my Leatherman Micra during a staff meeting this morning took on new dimensions. One of my coworker's commented: "He's allowed to have it here but he can't take it on a plane." I guess in our brave new world we will just tug and tear on things until they're all messed up.
 
On the other hand, no one says you have to fly.

But it's just too bad; I think that $15 billion bailout money could have been used for better causes.

-Jerome
 
"Spotlight on Non-Metallic Knives...Ominous"

Well, isn't THAT nice...I guess I feel ALOT safer now.:(.
 
I have a suspicion that these terrorists might have been even smarter than was initially indicated.

I mean look at it... they nailed the pentagon and the world trade center, and also managed to get our own government to turn on it's own armed citizens more so than before - this ladies and gentlemen is how you win a war, get your enemy to disarm itself, then move on in and kick their ass!
I guess sometimes it's hard to tell who your real enemies are.
 
Excellent Thread: thanks, guys, for the posts...
YoungCutter raises the point: telling who the Real Enemies Are...
Our U.S. Constitution told us, by implication all the way through it, WHO, "the enemies are," those that do not value life, liberty, & property, the biggest abusers being the centralized, federal government; which is WHY the framers saw fit to LIMIT THEIR powers, not the peoples' powers (RIGHTS: Life, Liberty, Property...).
The terrorists only manifested what had to be shown was "under the surface" in our own country's mindset & motives, but it had been there all along.
Americans could easily have "taken on" the hijackers, & some did (Flight 93 Heroes: Rest in Peace....) yet, as a people, America is soft & comfortable. Hence most are willing to forsake what they have been gifted/granted at the cost of valiant blood: our own fore-fathers.
Make no mistake about it: We are not just talking about "pieces of metal or plastic" here; we are dealing with the libertine foundations of man's rights AS MAN; without which, he loses a part of himself.
At what point does he cease to be MAN...?
We know at what point he ceases to be free, that line has already been crossed....
 
The thing that is the most worrying to me about this whole mess is that soon it is going to be just the terrorists and criminals that will have weapons. Do these people really think that terrorists will honor our laws and not carry guns or knives because we have outlawed them. What an outlandish idea.

What is being done is that the ability of law abiding citizens to defend themselves is being horribly undermined.

The airlines are saying that it is our duty to assist in stopping hijackers from taking over airplanes. At the same time they are telling us that we must do it without the benefit of having some sort of weapon to aid us. I am a firm believer in doing whatever is neccessary to stop hijackers, I just wish that it could be done with something more than a plastic butter knife.

I have been thinking of getting a non-metallic knife just for this reason. I would sure feel a whole lot better having a good knife with me when I travel and to hell with what the FAA thinks.
 
The first thing I thought of when I heard about the fact that the terrorists had knives was "oh $hit, here we go." I knew what was coming next and of course it did. My very next thought was how I could circumvent the new regulations. I do not like the idea of getting on a plane without some sort of protection and I hate to be without a knife.

That article is the first mention that I have seen that the terrorists might have had plastic undetectable knives. I think it's a bunch of bull created for the article. For one thing, everything I have seen about these guys points to low-tech, the simpler the better. They did not need plastic knives nor would they bother to seek them out. As someone said above, they relied totally on surprise as their real weapon and a couple of cheap boxcutters.

One thing that has never been clarified by the media has been what exactly are boxcutters? To me a boxcutter is a flimsy piece of folded metal tube that a single edge razor blade slides into. A utility knife is something else altogether, but I bet that's what they are referring to.

The new imaging technologies make me very uneasy. I would not try to sneak anything onto a plane even if they don't currently have the devices in airports. That said, I'm working on making some titanium keyrings with mammoth ivory overlays, unsharpened and non blade shaped so that I could still have some of my favorite materials with me at all times.:) Not that I'm planning on going anywhere soon....

My letter is going off today.
 
Back
Top