Spotting fakes

[imafritz]

Howdy folks. I spend most of my time on Buck forum since that’s what I primarily accumulate. However, being a knife guy, I feel I would be remiss if I didn’t own a Ka-bar Marine knife. I’ve been trolling the bay and have found some prices well better than others. My question is, if a brand new knife is listed, doesn’t indicate replica and is stamped olean ny, is it likely real, or are there fakes that look real?

 

[Ruari]

There might be fakes, things to look out for are the grind lines and fuller relationships. The Ka Bar 1217 (and others) now have the sabre grind higher, and litetally just meets the well defined fuller. An older example might have a lower sabre grind that doesn't meet the fuller (+-5mm below). Look for the cross guard as well - Ka Bars are oriented to the rear (both ends bent towards the pommel) and a fake might have a straight crossguard.
There are plenty of legit pics of Ka Bars, so it would be worth the time to cross reference what you are seeing and make sure it matches up.
Ka Bar also has a partially hidden pommel pin - it is driven in and visible only from the right side of the pommel. A fake Ka Bar might have a through and through pin like the Ontario 498.
I'll take a few pics of new and old later, and some of an Ontario 498 as well for some comparisons.

 

[Ruari]

Older low grind

Newer high grind

Ka Bar pin on the right hand side of pommel and Ontario pommel and pin

Ka Bar and Ontario left hand side of the pommel, you can see the Ontario pin goes staright through. Also a narrower pommel for the Ontario

 

[gunsil]

Most on ebay are modern re-makes from KA-BAR which were never issued to any USMC. KA-BAR began re-making them in 1976 and still makes them. If you want a real KA-BAR USMC issued knife you need to learn the difference. Originals with thick or fat pommels will not have the pommel held on with pins, the thinner pommel ones have a pin that goes all the way through while the re-makes have the pin only going in from one side. The lettering on the originals is much thinner than that of the re-makes and none of the original issued knives have sheaths with the USMC or KA-BAR logos on them. Those shown in the previous post are re-issues from KA-BAR and never issued to the USMC.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

WW2 1219C2/USN MK2 knives had both unbent and bent guards straight from the factory. Many factory unbent guards were bent in the field.

The "modern offical " ones (20227) are all straight guards. Modern official ones are from 1962 onward. These were made by Utica, Connetta, Camillus, MSI and Ontario. Ontario is the only company still making 20227s under contract for the government. The 498 is the Ontario civilian version of the 20227, made to the same specs as the 20227. If you hold a 20227 and a 498 side by side, 99% of people could not tell which is which.

The modern ones all have straight guards, thin (1/4") pommels that are pinned all the way through.

When Kabar started making the 1217s (remakes) they deliberately made multiple detail changes to prevent folks from trying to fake them into WW2 originals.

First, they used the original thick (3/8") pommels BUT they pinned then rather than peening them tight. No WW2 thick pommel knives were ever made with a pinned pommel.

Second, the pins are "blind pinned", meaning the pins only go 3/4 of the way through the pommel and can only be seen on one side.

Third, the ricasso stamping font on the new ones are larger and deeper with wide font strokes. WW2 versions had a smaller font with thin, shallowly stamped strokes.

Fourth, the modern Kabar sheath has the EGA stamp. No original sheaths had an EGA stamp.

Fifth, the early Kabar remakes had a grind that stopped about 5/32" short of the bottom edge of the fuller, where the WW2 specs had the grind coming all the way up to the bottom edge of the fuller. Sometime around 2014 or 2015, the grind was changed to all the way up to the fuller to be closer to the WW2 specs. All other anti-fakery characteristics remain in effect.

 

[Ruari]

All of the above is correct, but if you're just after a genuine Ka Bar (not WW2 issue) then my post may help you sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[imafritz]

Most on ebay are modern re-makes from KA-BAR which were never issued to any USMC. KA-BAR began re-making them in 1976 and still makes them. If you want a real KA-BAR USMC issued knife you need to learn the difference. Originals with thick or fat pommels will not have the pommel held on with pins, the thinner pommel ones have a pin that goes all the way through while the re-makes have the pin only going in from one side. The lettering on the originals is much thinner than that of the re-makes and none of the original issued knives have sheaths with the USMC or KA-BAR logos on them. Those shown in the previous post are re-issues from KA-BAR and never issued to the USMC.

Thank you very much. I will study this. If I understand the last part, the remakes are genuine ka-bar and not fakes, just not marine issue, right.

 

[imafritz]

There might be fakes, things to look out for are the grind lines and fuller relationships. The Ka Bar 1217 (and others) now have the sabre grind higher, and litetally just meets the well defined fuller. An older example might have a lower sabre grind that doesn't meet the fuller (+-5mm below). Look for the cross guard as well - Ka Bars are oriented to the rear (both ends bent towards the pommel) and a fake might have a straight crossguard.
There are plenty of legit pics of Ka Bars, so it would be worth the time to cross reference what you are seeing and make sure it matches up.
Ka Bar also has a partially hidden pommel pin - it is driven in and visible only from the right side of the pommel. A fake Ka Bar might have a through and through pin like the Ontario 498.
I'll take a few pics of new and old later, and some of an Ontario 498 as well for some comparisons.

Thanks

 

[GIRLYmann]

...My question is, if a brand new knife is listed, doesn’t indicate replica and is stamped olean ny, is it likely real, or are there fakes that look real?

haven't seen a faked "olean ny" usmc kbar.
seen marked with "made in cxxxx" though...

one major difference found on current
ka-bar usmc f/u is the slightly raised
off-centered handle

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ka-bar-offset.1309830/
...versus the perfectly centered handles on fakes

 

[gunsil]

Thank you very much. I will study this. If I understand the last part, the remakes are genuine ka-bar and not fakes, just not marine issue, right.

I suppose that depends on what your definition of genuine KA-BAR is. Yes, the newer (1976-now) ones are marketed by a company called KA-BAR. However, they don't really have a factory of their own. I believe their KA-BAR USMC knives are made for them by Cutco which is in Olean, NY just as KA-BAR is. Union Cutlery company of which KA-BAR was a brand name made the original KA-BAR USMC and USN knives with the KA-BAR mark. The name of the company was changed to KA-BAR Inc in 1952 and production remained in the old Union Cut co factory. In 1966 the company was sold to Cole National and by 1976-1977 the old Factory was closed and knives marked Kabar and then KA-BAR again were no longer made by the original company but were made on contract by other cutlery companies. The company has been sold twice I think since Cole National sold it in the mid 1990s. The present owners sell some good knives for sure, I wish they had their own factory, but they are not really related to the company that made the original KA-BAR USMC knives other than they have purchased the name and are back in Olean, NY. So, if you want a "genuine" KA-BAR USMC you just have to decide what genuine means. The present version although a little different from the WW2 knives is still an excellent knife and well constructed and very serviceable should you ever need a knife that large.