-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Spyderco and CRK. Industry Giants?
- Thread starter Eliteone2383
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 15, 1999
- Messages
- 2,130
I consider them to be industry "giants" due to their innovative designs; excellent quality and customer service. They have both had an undoubtable impact to knife collectors and users alike and to use a recent term, both have been "influencers" despite neither being literal "giants" as far as production numbers, etc.
- Joined
- May 17, 2012
- Messages
- 1,623
Spyderco popularized the pocket clip, Chris Reeve invented the frame lock. Even though I’m not a fan of either company you have to give credit where it’s due. Like Ron above me said, both companies were a gigantic influence on the knife community.
But if you are looking at overall revenue then both of them are low in comparison. As stated previously in this thread Spyderco makes $10 million USD annually, and I found another site that lists $15 million USD. Either way, still not comparable to Victorinox at nearly $500 million USD. This is honestly surprising because an article I found just now when googling Emerson Knives had them at an annual revenue of about $10 million as well. So it would seem that even though Spyderco seems so much larger, they actually are somewhat boutique in the grand scheme of things.
But if you are looking at overall revenue then both of them are low in comparison. As stated previously in this thread Spyderco makes $10 million USD annually, and I found another site that lists $15 million USD. Either way, still not comparable to Victorinox at nearly $500 million USD. This is honestly surprising because an article I found just now when googling Emerson Knives had them at an annual revenue of about $10 million as well. So it would seem that even though Spyderco seems so much larger, they actually are somewhat boutique in the grand scheme of things.
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2018
- Messages
- 1,437
The number for KAI is only for KAI-USA, not the entire company. Their website says they had 2,583 employees as of April 2020.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2019
- Messages
- 75
I'd be very interested to see sales numbers for all the major knife brands. I would guess that your average person who just wants a knife for practical purposes is going to spend a lot less than $100. I just can't see CRK as a high volume seller to the general public given their prices.
ferider
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2018
- Messages
- 16,035
And it's only the #employees registered on LinkedIn, of course. Like I said, not accurate. Victorinox has subsidiaries in 15 countries outside the US, also does watches, Spyderco subcontracts in China, Italy and Taiwan, etc. We can debate forever who to include. Still, I feel the order is probably similar.
I think this question conflates success in large-scale production, with influence.
For example, Buck is both hugely historically influential through the 110, and a massive maker of good but uninfluential knives.
Victorinox or Opinel hasn’t had an original idea in living memory, but make loads of a good product.
Bo Randall and Bob Terzuola were, in the scheme of things, small makers, but hugely influential through their designs.
Sal G and Spyerdco are somewhat in between. Influential (rivalling Bob T for the idea of the “tactical folder”), but also a well-distributed product.
And, though I hate to say it, Cold Steel is another brand that has had both wide distribution and availability, and heavily influenced the market. Tanto, for example.
The “boom in the industry”, in my view, began about 50+ years ago when (a) stainless became more than a niche item, and (b) Gerber (Al Mar designing) and others started creating the idea of a higher grade (or better design) of factory knives than what had been the norm.
For example, Buck is both hugely historically influential through the 110, and a massive maker of good but uninfluential knives.
Victorinox or Opinel hasn’t had an original idea in living memory, but make loads of a good product.
Bo Randall and Bob Terzuola were, in the scheme of things, small makers, but hugely influential through their designs.
Sal G and Spyerdco are somewhat in between. Influential (rivalling Bob T for the idea of the “tactical folder”), but also a well-distributed product.
And, though I hate to say it, Cold Steel is another brand that has had both wide distribution and availability, and heavily influenced the market. Tanto, for example.
The “boom in the industry”, in my view, began about 50+ years ago when (a) stainless became more than a niche item, and (b) Gerber (Al Mar designing) and others started creating the idea of a higher grade (or better design) of factory knives than what had been the norm.
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2015
- Messages
- 1,114
I dont think I'm articulating my thoughts very well. Some have hit on my thoughts and said them better than I did. I do love the diversity we have in the industry. I'm just trying to gage how smaller companies stay afloat. Even with higher priced knives I can't see much profit being made as companies like ckf do not produce many pieces comparatively. The knife industry is to me kind of an enigma.
Spyderco has way more employees than that at each of their manufacturing facilities.
- Joined
- May 17, 2012
- Messages
- 1,623
My opinion on this specifically is brand loyalty and big margins. I will never buy a Spyderco knife out of personal preference. Their designs don’t speak to me and I don’t care about the newest steel on a PM2 with a different color G10. However, if I had the money I’d buy a Strider knife from every drop they put out. I was like that with Emerson for a long time too until I ended up with all the models I wanted. The smaller brands have a fierce following, and they also tend to have a smaller number of employees, a smaller production facility, more automation, and have been established for a long time. Knowing you’ll sell out of every knife you make combined with relatively low overhead makes for wider profit margins, which translates to success.
A perfect example adjacent to the knife community is the knife-bro jewelry like Steel Flame and Starlingear. If you’ve ever seen their booths at a knife show, you’d know it looks like a pack of hyenas on a zebra carcass. People are lining up to pay $600 for a piece of metal with a hole in it all day long. The pieces don’t cost anywhere near that to produce so they have margins fatter than a Kardashian behind.
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2018
- Messages
- 1,437
CKF (not CRK) can make money because they have low overhead, high prices, and a lot of their production is funded by presales. While it's extremely murky, the most widely believed concept of their production model is that all of their parts are CNC'd in China and and either (1) assembled in China and finished in Russia or (2) assembled in Russia. Even if a run is only 1000 pieces, the presale at $500 per knife would generate at least $500,000. A chunk of that goes to the OEM, a chunk to pay their own overhead, and a chunk to the retailer (I'm not sure what their relationship is to FRWK, I assume they're somehow related). Everything that's left over is profit.
No matter the maker's size, selling allocations of product to retailers and doing direct-to-customer presales can make it a lot easier to keep a business going. Whether it's Spyderco or Chris Reeve, most of their revenue is derived from wholesale rather than direct-to-consumer sales. BladeHQ, KnifeCenter, or whichever retailer pays the manufacturer up front for product that they turn around and sell. The markup on most specialty goods is absurd, with retail often being double the wholesale cost. Since the manufacturer's profit comes from these wholesale sales, we can be confident that their cost to produce an item is a good deal lower than the wholesale price. Spyderco's MAP is set at 40% under MSRP, so it's certain that the wholesale price of their product is a good amount below that, and then the actual cost to produce even lower.
re: Quiet and el gigantor, I have to really disagree with the spirit of parts of your replies based on my experience of the thread so far. Just look at the quality of the responses here, and the imo genuinely interesting reflections on knife making as an economic activity in a specific liberal-economic social context that OP sparked with their question. I learned more about both the lay of knife industry land, and common perspectives on that - as well as common perceptions of the business models of each - in a couple of posts by folks here than I have absorbed anywhere else. That's super interesting, and even useful for thinking about this genuinely niche, weird hobby/activity that draws people to this forum. Like, of the list of recent threads when I opened them up, this was the most interesting and unusual, which says something. Not condescending to or being dismissive of people asking potentially naive, unusual, or even poorly phrased or factually mistaken but still valid or generative questions (none of which are how I'd inherently characterize OP's) seems like the better, less gate-keepy, more productive approach to me. Not everyone spends 30+ hours of their weeks pouring over blade steel charts etc., and if you don't find the question interesting or useful, it's difficult for me to see the merit or use in doing anything other than not engaging.
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2013
- Messages
- 22,837
Perhaps then, you'll just see the merit on not engaging me? Especially when you're 100% incorrect, that's a bad look. Such was the reason for my comments in the first place: incorrect assertions need to be corrected so that others who may not know any better don't read them and decide they're factual. There's enough misinformation on the internet as is.
Edited to keep this party polite.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2013
- Messages
- 22,837
I DO agree that Spyderco and CRK are industry titans who have helped shape the knife market as we know it today. However, that's not what the OP was saying:
Sales means we're discussing sales. I read it in a pretty straightforward fashion. The whole thing just came off as "My favorite knife companies are A and B, and they're clearly the best!" I mean, I like both of those companies but "dwarfing everyone else's sales"? Ha, no.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2019
- Messages
- 242
I can't find the exact post now, but recently on Instagram someone asked where one of their newly-announced knives was made and that was CKF's exact response. They have them machined in China and then assembled and finished in Russia.
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2020
- Messages
- 1,711
Because many of Spyderco knives are expensive. Not everyone can afford a $100 - $250 pocket knife.
Kershaw alone offers a ton of awesome knives under $50. Spyderco isn't touching Kershaw's sales. Two different types of buyers. I feel like your post is baited, but maybe not.
I have never actually ran into anyone carrying a Spyderco. Most people that see my Spydies have no idea what they are. I have ran into people carrying inexpensive box store folders, though.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2015
- Messages
- 1,114
Not baited at all. I really want to learn more about the industry and how companies stay profitable despite all the competition.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2009
- Messages
- 1,359
Instead of looking at the industry as a cohesive whole, the industry is actually quite fractured. Think of it almost like segments of cars: there's the sedan, coupe, sports cars, SUVs, Vans, Minivans, Pickup truck etc. A carmaker designing an SUV, is not really looking to compete with other sport cars in the market, they're looking to compete with other SUVs. There's some overlap, like crossovers but for the most part, they're separate markets.
So take a traditional knife manufacturer like GEC. They're not worried about what kershaw or Spyderco is doing because Kershaw or Spydero is not in the traditional knife segment of the market. What knives they do offer are not taking away potential customers from GEC.