Spyderco and heat-treat consistency

[Ankerson]

Hmmm... I haven't put my S110V Para2 through it's paces but I guess it may be the harder run and my 2013 Forum Native and S110V Mule are the softer run. I have so far been impressed with my Mule and Native. I guess I need to see what my S110V Para2 has to offer.

The Mule is 60, I like mine too, it does work well.

I don't know what the Forum Native is, I do have one and it also did very well.

Yeah give that Para 2 a workout. :thumbup:

 

[Don M]

Curious as well about my N5 LW that I got about a year ago. It would be good to know when the hardness was bumped up.

 

[Ankerson]

Curious as well about my N5 LW that I got about a year ago. It would be good to know when the hardness was bumped up.

Performance should be fine on those, I beat the heck out of my Forum Native 5 and it took all I could put it through.

Edge retention was very good, couldn't do a formal strict edge retention test on it due to the short blade length, but putting it through the paces it did do very well.

 

[Stache Dude]

Who does Spyderco buy their steel sheets from? Who does Spyderco's heat treatment, do they have a facility for this? Who cuts out the blade shapes from the steel sheets?[/QUOTE/]
As for the first one, I don't know. However, I believe that Spyderco does do all of their ht in house, as well as cutting out the blade shapes. Blade HQ has a factory tour video on Youtube is you want to check for yourself.

 

[me2]

Did Spyderco confirm the HT procedure was changed? Their response in the OP confirmed steels are treated the same regardless of model. The precision of the hardness tests means all three hardnesses above could meet the same specification, 63 +/-1, or 62-64. In other words, a small change in that range doesn't necessarily indicate a change in procedure.

 

[GatorFlash1]

Who does Spyderco buy their steel sheets from? Who does Spyderco's heat treatment, do they have a facility for this? Who cuts out the blade shapes from the steel sheets?[/QUOTE/]
As for the first one, I don't know. However, I believe that Spyderco does do all of their ht in house, as well as cutting out the blade shapes. Blade HQ has a factory tour video on Youtube is you want to check for yourself.

I'm not sure you are correct. Knives are coming from many different countries, Japan, Taiwan, maybe others.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Who does Spyderco buy their steel sheets from? Who does Spyderco's heat treatment, do they have a facility for this? Who cuts out the blade shapes from the steel sheets?

In the US, we purchase our steel from the foundry's that make the steel. In Japan and Italy, the steel is purchased from the foundry by the maker. In Taiwan, we ship the steel from the US. In China, the maker purchases the steel in China. Carpenter stocks some steels in China.

Heat treating is done in Colorado for the US factory by a specialist in the field. Heat treating is done in each respective country.

The maker will cut out the blade for the model being made. Some blades are stamped, most are cut with a laser.

sal

 

[bh49]

I may get flamed for saying this but it is my opinion that the issue here is user error. I think this problem is usually sharpening related. Spyderco has always had a great reputation regarding their heat treatment. I think if people are just persistent until they can sharpen S110V just as easily as any other steel and get it just as sharp as any other steel with a good clean apex with no bur or stressed steel that they will find that it does in fact hold an edge longer than most other steels. It will even maintain that very high level of sharpness longer that so many say it won't hold as long as other steels. Will it stay sharp ten times longer than S30V? Heck no. Based on my experience my guess is maybe twice as long or even a little longer depending on what you are cutting.

+1

I do believe that Spyderco has changed (improved) their heat treat on s110v since the initial Manix was released.

Is this information comes from Spyderco or just a guess?

Yes, that is correct.

The Manix 2 LW I tested 2 years ago was 62.

The Military is 63-64 so I would expect the sister models to be the same so performance should be comparable.

As far as I know production blades heat-treated in batches. I would expect some variation in the hardness from one blade to another. I remember that when 2013 Forum Natives were released I check hardness on my blade and found it lower than on the blade, which Sal was carrying. Also even two calibrated testers will not show exactly the same result for the same blade. Most of the testers, unless you want to spend about $15-20K have accuracy +/- 1 point. Some user get confused, when they see reading 60.3 and think that .1 is accuracy. Sorry, in most cases this is only resolution and accuracy still either +/-1 or +/- .5.
To make story shorter, in my professional opinion the same heat-treatment manufacturing process can produce two blades in the same batch, which would test 2 points different on the same tester.

 

[Ankerson]

As far as I know production blades heat-treated in batches. I would expect some variation in the hardness from one blade to another. I remember that when 2013 Forum Natives were released I check hardness on my blade and found it lower than on the blade, which Sal was carrying. Also even two calibrated testers will not show exactly the same result for the same blade. Most of the testers, unless you want to spend about $15-20K have accuracy +/- 1 point. Some user get confused, when they see reading 60.3 and think that .1 is accuracy. Sorry, in most cases this is only resolution and accuracy still either +/-1 or +/- .5.
To make story shorter, in my professional opinion the same heat-treatment manufacturing process can produce two blades in the same batch, which would test 2 points different on the same tester.

There are many factors involved.

The most important ones are as follows.

1 - Who is doing the heat treating and how good their equipment is, that is major right there.

2 - What the tolerance level is required, another huge factor.

3 - And if the equipment is good enough to hold within + or - 1 point, some can hold that tolerance level.


These people who are doing the heat treating commercially aren't getting their hardness testers at Wal-Mart.

Neither are the ones who I get my information from.

Some of heat treaters don't just do heat treating for the knife companies, they also HT for Aerospace so some of them have extremely accurate equipment.

Far cry from the ones who are using a blow torch and a 5 gallon bucket of used motor oil and tempering in moms toaster oven.



All of that said hardness is only part of it, there is much more involved in heat treating than what the final hardness is.

It's the actual protocol used and that is something that none of us will ever know as that would be privileged information.


That is all I am going to say on this....

 

[kvanpacker]

I'll echo what Ankerson is saying

You can look up the material data sheets on the CPM website and it shows some of the heat treat info and the phase diagrams of the steel which is crucial in understand what grain structures will be created

Heat treating is a detailed recipe that's different for each steel and the temperatures, times, cooling rates, quenching, cryogenic quenching even, etc... How you do it will determine the end product

The best cookie recipe in the word can be ruined at any point of the process

Edit: and during the baking process there are enough differences in a oven that if cookie sheets aren't rotated cookies could be more hard than others

Now professional heat treaters ovens cost $$$$$$$$$$$ and they are built for temperature stability the aforementioned was just a crude example

 

[bh49]

All of that said hardness is only part of it, there is much more involved in heat treating than what the final hardness is.
It's the actual protocol used and that is something that none of us will ever know as that would be privileged information.

agree. two pieces of the same steel with the same HRc can be very different.

 

[kvanpacker]

I'll add this

I have a PM2 S110V that was purchased in last two months

I've been using it and to be honest it's held up to my use better than my S30V

At some point it will dull and then I'll start banging on my M4 to see how well it holds up

 

[Zagorov]

I bought the G10 S110V Manix, and now I find out that the HT could have been done better. I don't like that.

 

[Surfingringo]

I bought the G10 S110V Manix, and now I find out that the HT could have been done better. I don't like that.

If, (IF) Spyderco actually adjusted their heat treat on their s110v knives it was likely the result of extensive testing and seeing that s110v would actually perform at that level, and observing how the initial runs in this steel held up in the hands of consumers. Working with s110v is no trivial matter and they were the first company to even attempt to use it in a production knife and are now using it in multiple regular models. I guess you could try out the s110v ht from one of the many other companies using this steel in their production blades? Wait what? There aren't any?? hehe

Joking aside, Spyderco is constantly tweaking their production (including ht) to evolve and improve every knife they make. That is something we should love about the company...not resent. Enjoy your Manix. Spyderco has never used a bad ht on s110v but as fast as these knives have sold, yours likely has the most recent ht anyway.

 

[kvanpacker]

If, (IF) Spyderco actually adjusted their heat treat on their s110v knives it was likely the result of extensive testing and seeing that s110v would actually perform at that level, and observing how the initial runs in this steel held up in the hands of consumers. Working with s110v is no trivial matter and they were the first company to even attempt to use it in a production knife and are now using it in multiple regular models. I guess you could try out the s110v ht from one of the many other companies using this steel in their production blades? Wait what? There aren't any?? hehe

Joking aside, Spyderco is constantly tweaking their production (including ht) to evolve and improve every knife they make. That is something we should love about the company...not resent. Enjoy your Manix. Spyderco has never used a bad ht on s110v but as fast as these knives have sold, yours likely has the most recent ht anyway.

Continuous improvement, it's a good thing

 

[Ankerson]

If, (IF) Spyderco actually adjusted their heat treat on their s110v knives it was likely the result of extensive testing and seeing that s110v would actually perform at that level, and observing how the initial runs in this steel held up in the hands of consumers. Working with s110v is no trivial matter and they were the first company to even attempt to use it in a production knife and are now using it in multiple regular models. I guess you could try out the s110v ht from one of the many other companies using this steel in their production blades? Wait what? There aren't any?? hehe

Joking aside, Spyderco is constantly tweaking their production (including ht) to evolve and improve every knife they make. That is something we should love about the company...not resent. Enjoy your Manix. Spyderco has never used a bad ht on s110v but as fast as these knives have sold, yours likely has the most recent ht anyway.

Taking S110V and putting it into standard production models is a feat in itself.

Taking into count that very few custom makers will work with it due to the extreme wear resistance that makes it very hard to work with.

I agree Spyderco has done a great job with S110V and if they can get more out it then more power to them as we will be the ones who will benefit from the increased performance.

 

[802-303]

More of a story here, I live close to Crucible Industries. (Syracuse, NY) Ran across an employee of the factory, during conversation I mentioned most of my knifes are CPM steels and the new s110v is a perfect knife steel! The guy was blown away that a knife company used it in production, and was very impressed with the pm2 design.

Guess that reconfirm's answers for an early question as well... Crucible makes the material. Spyderco cuts, performs heat treat.