Spyderco Chinook or Spyderco Civilian for SD?

J

jinuineasn

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Aug 16, 2005
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I'm trying to pick up my first spyderco for SD purposes. A CCW is out of the question. Is the Chinook good for thrusting purposes? The blade doesn't seem like a down pointing spear point like the 806 afck. So will thrusting be upward thrusts? Any other knife out there I should consider? Thanks in advance.
 
AFAIK, thrusting with the Chinook is possible. The Civvie slices very, very well, but at the expense of not being able to thrust. What training you already have may narrow the choices down a bit, as with the Gunting, Yojimbo (and Ronin), and P'Kal.

Possible alternatives are:

Harpy (more utilitarian than the Civvie)
Waved Delica/Endura
Gunting (discontinued)
Lil' Temp (discontinued)
Karambit (be prepared to lose quite a bit of your own blood though)
Yojimbo (recently discontinued)
Ronin (discontinued)
SPOT (discontinued), Swick (discontinued), Bi-Fold (if it ever comes out)
P'Kal (if reverse edge-in is your preferred style, and if it comes out)

Others can probably add to the list.
 
The Spyderco Civilian is the worst possible knife for dealing with an attacker.

This is because the attackers soak themselves, faint or give you their wallets when you whip it out. "crack!"

Therefore you will never deal with attackers, making it the worst choice.
 
You should consider getting a gun and using your small folder as a tool. 99% of knife fights not involving large kitchen knives end up with 2 bleeding noobs in the hospital with multiple slash wounds and a few small punctures. If a criminal has a gun your knife will be of little use and if he has a knife you will both be within inches of eachother trying to slash and stab. If you had enough training to sucessfully dodge knife attacks while deploying and making a "one shot stop" stab with your folder you would not be asking what knife makes for a good SD folder. Just my 2 cents, but knives are poor for SD in all but a handfull of peoples possesion and those people are easily shot from 5 paces. Chinook is a great knife, you will love it.
 
BigJimSlade said:
You should consider getting a gun and using your small folder as a tool. 99% of knife fights not involving large kitchen knives end up with 2 bleeding noobs in the hospital with multiple slash wounds and a few small punctures. If a criminal has a gun your knife will be of little use and if he has a knife you will both be within inches of eachother trying to slash and stab. If you had enough training to sucessfully dodge knife attacks while deploying and making a "one shot stop" stab with your folder you would not be asking what knife makes for a good SD folder. Just my 2 cents, but knives are poor for SD in all but a handfull of peoples possesion and those people are easily shot from 5 paces. Chinook is a great knife, you love it.
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Why is it that people who respond to such threads as this one make an immediate assumption that the posting individual has legal access to a handgun? There are any jurisdictions in the US where, unfortunately, people may not carry a handgun for defensive purposes and a knife may be a better choicer than nothing at all.

In the specific case of knives such as the Civilian and the other "hawkbill: tyoes, it is my understanding that the theory is that the person attacked can use the knife to slash his/her attacker and thus cause the attacker to let go of him/her. This will give the person attacked a chance to escape. I do not believe that the Civilian and other such type knives are intended for those who are silly enough to wish to stand and fight.
 
The chances of bieng attacked by an unarmed man outside some drunken altercation at a bar or ball game is slim IMO. SD means you are using the implement to stop deadly force. The law does not allow for you to start slashing people for no reason. They must have a weapon or in some way be trying to end your life or commit grevous harm before you are allowed to start cutting away at them. Then add the fact that since the above is true the attacker probably does have a weapon of some kind and you have a strong argument against knives for SD. Every sword wielding culture knew the disadvatages to a knife in a fight. I am a firm believer a cold steel baseball bat will do you better, or even a tactical shovel. Even if your attacker is unarmed and you have a good enough reason to convince the DA you had to attack him with a deadly weapon to deffend yourself then a slash might scare him off. SD is not about maybes imo. Look at hospital addmitance and actual police statistics and you will see the truth about knife fights. They are bloody, messy and ususally involve two injured parties. If you cant carry a gun then that is a sad state of affairs and I would suggest checking local laws as carrying a folder of reasonable size may be against the law as well. I dont think the civillian was designed to fight at all, by someone wo wants to stand and fight or cut and run. I think rellying on a slash and run strategy might just get you killed.
 
Why is it that everybody keeps on perpetuating the 'Don't bring a knife to a gun fight' thing?

Have any of you ever heard of the 21 foot concept?
 
Respectfully, BigJim, your overwrought and somewhat didactic response belongs in PracTac, not here. This is the blade discussion forum. It is not the domain of tactics, law, or criminal statistics, and those are outside the scope of the original question anyway.

Jinuineasn has made it very clear that he cannot carry a firearm, so I find it humorous that individuals are always so ardent in recommending them in threads like these. I can't carry one either, due to where I live. We don't know what sort of training Jinuineasn may have or any other details. We do know that folders with blades over four inches are legal where he lives.

Given the info we have, I recommend neither as best. I crown the Spyderco Ronin as the best SD knife the company offers. It is easily concealable, comfortable to carry, and very ergonomic. It offers tremendous cutting power, particularly in slashes. Further, it can also stab satisfactorily, a deficiency the Civilian has. Part of the Ronin's virtue lies in it being a fixed blade, which provides for the fastest most reliable deployment. On a related note, the new Street Beat knife has many similar characteristics to the Ronin, and may be a good alternative. I don't own one, so I can't say.

If fixed blades are illegal, my next recommendation would be the Yojimbo. It was developed to very closely mirror the Ronin, and it absolutely does. Its cutting performance is equal, and the slighly larger handle of the knife is in some ways better. The linered G10 of the handles and compression lock also make the folder very durable, but when you're talking Spydercos of this price point and classification, that's a moot point.
 
jinuineasn said:
I'm trying to pick up my first spyderco for SD purposes. A CCW is out of the question. Is the Chinook good for thrusting purposes? The blade doesn't seem like a down pointing spear point like the 806 afck. So will thrusting be upward thrusts? Any other knife out there I should consider? Thanks in advance.
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Generally speaking, I automatically disqualify a folder that can't be use for thrusting, because experience shows me that when untrained people get put under pressure, their reptile brain takes over and screams at them to thrust thrust thrust. The Chinook, though, is so huge that it's formidable even with that restriction. Thing is, if I were going to carry something so huge, I'd go with a Cuda Maxx bowie, which retains thrusting ability.

The Chinook is a top-flight SD folder. The Manix is in the same league, just some different philosophy on blade grind and shape.

The knife you should consider is the waved endura 4. It is not overbuilt and super-strong like the Chinook and Manix. But, the wave is a marvelous invention, and all it takes is some pressure testing with a partner to realize why.

Joe
 
eojk said:
Respectfully, BigJim, your overwrought and somewhat didactic response belongs in PracTac, not here. This is the blade discussion forum. It is not the domain of tactics, law, or criminal statistics, and those are outside the scope of the original question anyway.

Jinuineasn has made it very clear that he cannot carry a firearm, so I find it humorous that individuals are always so ardent in recommending them in threads like these. I can't carry one either, due to where I live. We don't know what sort of training Jinuineasn may have or any other details. We do know that folders with blades over four inches are legal where he lives.

Given the info we have, I recommend neither as best. I crown the Spyderco Ronin as the best SD knife the company offers. It is easily concealable, comfortable to carry, and very ergonomic. It offers tremendous cutting power, particularly in slashes. Further, it can also stab satisfactorily, a deficiency the Civilian has. Part of the Ronin's virtue lies in it being a fixed blade, which provides for the fastest most reliable deployment. On a related note, the new Street Beat knife has many similar characteristics to the Ronin, and may be a good alternative. I don't own one, so I can't say.

If fixed blades are illegal, my next recommendation would be the Yojimbo. It was developed to very closely mirror the Ronin, and it absolutely does. Its cutting performance is equal, and the slighly larger handle of the knife is in some ways better. The linered G10 of the handles and compression lock also make the folder very durable, but when you're talking Spydercos of this price point and classification, that's a moot point.
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He asked about what knife is better for SD, my answer is to let him know that neither is a great option for SD. I stand by this statement and will always try and get people to see that a small folder is about the last thing weapon wise you would want in a situation. I have already stated that a fixed blade is better (edit: srry that was in another post, yes fixed is always better than folder in terms of speed and strength) and I think the Yhojimbo is junk for SD and would never own one. The lock is in the worst place possible for a knife that will be twisted and have pressure put on it from multiple angles (as in during a knife fight or altercation) and have had the blade come unlocked on me while doing several grips. This may just be my hands. I have never had this problem with the chinook. Also where do you get that 4" folders ar legal where he lives? He didnt even say where he lived. He also did not originaly say he could not carry a gun, it was edited in after my post. Also I did recomend one of the 2 knives he asked about, unlike yourself. But if you want tactical reasoning for me liking the chinook, there just isnt one. A slight difference in edge angle or tip shape will not come across in a life or death struggle. Anything with a sharp point will stab, anything with a good edge will cut. You would have to do alot of killing with the 2 knives to start to tell small diffenreces in tip shape and such. Hog hunters who use knives are probably the most experienced people on the planet for this comparison. Most like bowies, double edge bowies and some like wasp waisted daggers of tough construction.
 
"I think the Yhojimbo is junk for SD and would never own one. The lock is in the worst place possible for a knife that will be twisted and have pressure put on it from multiple angles (as in during a knife fight or altercation) and have had the blade come unlocked on me while doing several grips."
Don't you think that statement is a bit presumptious on your part? The Yojimbo is a knife designed by a Michael Janich, a respected martial artist, and built by Spyderco, a very respected company, as a Martial Blade Craft knife. It uses the Compression Lock, one of the strongest locks in the Spyderco inventory and one that was used quite successfully on Bram Frank's Gunting, also designed for martial blade work. I have never heard of any Compression Lock closing accidentally under any expected usage, indeed and usage at all.

May I suggest to you that you are sounding rather like a prejudiced blowhard in this thread?

Oh, and the carry of fixed-blade knives is also illegal in many jurisdictions.
 
I think they are junk and that isnt goin to change because a "martial artist" designed it or because Spyderco made it (own several spydies). The placement of the lock is what I do not like. If it was the lock itself I did not like then why would I recomend the Chinook wich has the same lock? Just because a black belt designed a knife does not make it good for fighting. What martial artist do you respect? The one who trains not to fight or the one who gets into bar fights with a knife even though he is supposedly an expert at unarmed combat? The lock is in a bad spot for knife that will be twisted or have odd pressure applied to the back of tha handle. This comes form real world experience in a great knife store with 2 gentlemen (both of whom are combat experienced and have much more to say on so called "tactical" features than myself) and myself inspecting the knife. We all questioned the position of the lock on the handle for SD purposes. We did so because it is tauted as a SD knife. After agreeing that it seemed far to easy to hit when not intended, I tried several grips. For both my hands (wich I clearly pointed out in my post) it is a simple and plain stupid spot for the lock. The two gentlemen with me seemed to agree but I will not speak for tham as our words were not so straight forward with eachother that I could review th knife for them.

Then we come to what the knife is, an odd shaped handle with a tall short wharncliffe. Please find me 1, even 1 "knife fighting expert" that supports this as the best SD blade shape or length besides the designer. Better yet name one real word tactical advatage the knife or shape has? I have trained under a few of the worlds most respected martial artists in my lifetime and all required actual proof that the weapon or technique preforms in its intended roll. Have you ever been in a knife fight let alone with the Yhojimbo? If not I find it odd that you can vouch for its combat effectivness. I will not pretend to have first hand knowledge of what blade will stab someone best in an SD situation. I recomend for the chinnok and against the yhojimbo on my experience with them as knives and nothing else. Yes fixed blade is illegal in many places, whats your point? I was simply agreeing with you that a fixed blade is a better SD tool if you are forced to use a knife as such.

EDIT: This is not a personal attack on Michael Janich. It is not his credentials I question only the lock position and blade shape/length. It is quite possible in my opinion to train long and hard in martial arts and still not come out of it the best knife designer. There are hundreds of knives designed by "fighting experts" and oddly all are very different. If you study a style then there may be a knife to go with that style. I do not think this makes your knife design better for SD in general. I did find it odd that on Michael Janich's website he was not using his own knife but the pistures may be older than his design.
 
The Civilian is much better for defense, although self-defense training is better than any knife and you should get self-defense training even if you do get the knife. The defense strategy I think works best is retreat and slash. You retreat to get away and slash if and when your attacker attempts to close distance. This way, you can stay out of his grasp and make him pay a price for every lunge. The Civilian is no thruster, but you don't want to be thrusting unless you are the attacker. It is extremely difficult for an attacker to defeat a skilled slasher.
 
BigJimSlade said:
He also did not originaly say he could not carry a gun, it was edited in after my post.
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Respectfully, by my counting, he edited his post 10 mins after he posted it, while you didn't post until just under 10 hours later.

BigJimSlade said:
I think they are junk and that isnt goin to change because a "martial artist" designed it or because Spyderco made it (own several spydies). The placement of the lock is what I do not like. If it was the lock itself I did not like then why would I recomend the Chinook wich has the same lock?
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Trivial correction: The Chinook has a lockback, not a compression lock.

BigJimSlade said:
Better yet name one real word tactical advatage the knife or shape has?
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Go to the Spyderco forums, look around for Dr. Snubnose's meat tests, here's the one he did on the Ronin. The Wharncliffe profile slices exceptionally well, I think there was a test with the Centofante 4 (also a Wharncliffe) that did remarkably well for its size.

Unfortunately, the comparison charts are down at the moment. A bit of searching will be required to help find some others to compare to.
 
Th232 you are correct on your first point. I must have missed it in my first reading and incorrectly assumed it was added after. If I had caught it I could have saved some breath, but I still do not feel small folders are "the right tool for the job"

I did not say that it had the compression lock myself, I was responding to a post that said it did. I have never liked this knife and was assuming the original poster of this info was correct. Regardless it changes nothing about my problem with the lock wich is its placemnt not its design. (non the less I should not aasume lest I become a donkey)

I am not impressed with the tests at all. They show that the knife will slice, is this a suprise? I never said a wharncliffe blade had no advatges as a cutting edge. I think if you are impliying that this is drasticly deeper or different from other blade shape would slice they must be tested side by side and you must have a control factor. Such as the bladesd bieng the same length, material, bevel angle ect... Simply cutting some meat does not demonstrate combat effectivness. Yes a knife shaped like an over sized box cutter will slice. I dont really think that was ever in question. How about how a blade against it will slide right down its profile and into your finger groove? Or about the potential for it openeing from lock depresion in certain grips? I love Wharncliffe profiles for cutting, I fail to see any tactical advatage unless you are saying they will slice a little deeper. If that is so, I would need side by side comparisons with simmialr blades to sway me in that direction. Also they stopped using meat as a testing meduim in serious lethality tests a decade ago as it was never consistent. A medium of definable viscosity is needed for such a test to be even slightly scientific. Many would argue that a recurve profile slices more aggresively and that is a blade shape found on countless "fighting" knives.
 
When I'm looking at a blade for SD, the factors I'm interested are:

-Ability to stab AND slash
-Long enough to penetrate and reach organs, considering a little fat and clothes (so for me, 3"+ should be good, generally).
-Consistently reliable lock. Though I would be weary of locks that may be more prone to disengaging with twists (Liner, frame, compression), it wouldn't be my main concern if it's made by a quality company/maker.

Of the two that you're asking about, I'd go with the Chinook. The Civilian lacks the ability to stab. If you have the true intent to stab and/or slash someone, I don't see the blade shape of the Chinook interfering with that.

My suggestion on a good SD knife: the Spyderco Waved Endura 4. Nothing fancy, not very expensive.

My 2 cents on SD: Make sure that your main focus is taking out the attacker. By this I mean his ability to do harm to you. That also means that your main focus should not necessarily be on deploying you knife, especially if you feel that you have a chance to accomplish your primary objective without doing so. This distinction needs to be made, deploying and using a weapon is only a means to ending a threat. The primary objective is to actually end the threat.

Examples of ending a threat:
Safely escaping
Eliminating the attacker's physical ability to do harm against you.
 
I think about the only comments I agree with in here are Joe's and ignoramus.

I know you didnt mention it as an option but an Endura 4 w/wave would serve you well.
 
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