Spyderco Chinook or Spyderco Civilian for SD?

BigJimSlade said:
I am not impressed with the tests at all. They show that the knife will slice, is this a suprise? I never said a wharncliffe blade had no advatges as a cutting edge. I think if you are impliying that this is drasticly deeper or different from other blade shape would slice they must be tested side by side and you must have a control factor. Such as the bladesd bieng the same length, material, bevel angle ect... Simply cutting some meat does not demonstrate combat effectivness. Yes a knife shaped like an over sized box cutter will slice. I dont really think that was ever in question. How about how a blade against it will slide right down its profile and into your finger groove? Or about the potential for it openeing from lock depresion in certain grips? I love Wharncliffe profiles for cutting, I fail to see any tactical advatage unless you are saying they will slice a little deeper. If that is so, I would need side by side comparisons with simmialr blades to sway me in that direction.
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From a meat test comparing the Yojimbo (edge length 2-11/16") with a CE Native (Edge length 2-5/8"), Lil' Temp Trailing Point PE (edge length 2-15/16" by my measuring tape) and a Chinook II PE (edge length 3-3/8"). Tests doe using the same piece of meat.

1: Quick downward slash
2: Thrust and pull downwards (first number is depth of thrust, second is length of pull)
3: Hard and fast horizontal slash

1 2 3
Yojimbo 3.75 3.5/9 3.5
Native CE 1.75 2.75/4.5 1.25
Lil' Temp 2.25 2.75/5.75 2.25
Chinook 3.25 3.25/8 3.25

The Yojimbo outdoes the Native (no surprise) but also the Lil' Temp in all three tests, despite its shorter blade length. Ditto with the Chinook.

Comparing the Chinook III and the Centofante 4 in a separate test here:

Chinook III: 2 2.75/8 2.5
Centofante 4: 3 2.75/8 3

BigJimSlade said:
Also they stopped using meat as a testing meduim in serious lethality tests a decade ago as it was never consistent. A medium of definable viscosity is needed for such a test to be even slightly scientific. Many would argue that a recurve profile slices more aggresively and that is a blade shape found on countless "fighting" knives.
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Concur on both points. However, in each of the tests mentioned above, the same piece of meat was used between the Yojimbo, Native, Lil' Temp and Chinook, likewise, the Chinook III and the Centofante 4 were tested on the same piece of meat (hopefully, all 6 weren't tested on the same piece of meat!)
 
I would still ike to see a comparison of the blade angles as I think this plays as much if not more of a factor in such a test but it does offer a better picture of the blade than the first test. The biggest non controled variable is of course the tester. How can he be shure all cuts have equal swath and power? It does seem that the wharncliffe blade is slicing well, although it doesnt beat the recurve chinook by much. I cant say it would change my mind on its tactical usefullness but it seems to be a good cutter. Id love to see a nice recurve in the ken onion kitchen knife style compared to a wharn in the same steel and edge geometry, but more just to see the results. I dont think I would ever change my mind about the yhojimbo as an SD knife due to the stubby blade (for reach not depth of cut) and my issues with the lock placement. I have always loved wharnies (cappers and kitchen knives) but have never thought of them as a tactical shape. Still my original point was that any knife you carry will be used for 99.99% cutting and maybe, possibly .01% of the time be deployed for SD. Thus I would choose my folder as such and if I have to stab or slice with it, it will work because I have a good knife in general. I dont ususally cary a hawkbill so I dont have much concern if my knife will stab and slice as every edc I have will do both.
 
As has been pointed out, there are legal restrictions in various jurisdictions on what may or may not be carried. The Yojimbo was, I believe, designed to meet those legal restrictions that limit knives carried to folders with blades of 3" or less. This is the law in Washington, DC, and in many other jurisdictions. If you believe that the law is wrong, get it changed but do not criticize the knives designed to work within that law. For my part. were I still carrying a knife for self defense, it would be my CUDA MAXX 5.5" Bowie blade folder. It has a VERY solid frame lock and an absolutely huge blade that will both thrust, slash, and do back cuts. Of course, if I were truly serious, Virginia has a shall issue ccw law and I would most likely get one and carry my Glock.

But none of my choices would work in DC, so I would be limited to what I could carry there. If I were carrying an SD knife in DC, it would be a my Gunting. And that is the situation in which the original poster in this thread fnds himself. So his choices would, per force, be very different. He is, apparently, allowed up to 4" blades. My choice at that length would be my Spyderco Terzuola StarMate, followed by my Chinook 2.

BTW, BigJim, on the compression lock and its placement, it is placed in exactly the same location on the Gunting and I would LOVE to see you get into a debate with Bram Frank over the choice of that lock and that location. I would be MOST informative as well as fun to watch.
 
I see the chinook as a better sd knife than the yojimbo and civilain. I like all of these knives though and feel all could be used effectively, but the chinook allows you move versitility. I see it as a near perfect sd knife based on its handle, lock, and clip point blade. It's a full sized folder, but pretty easy to carry, and doesn't cost too much.
 
FullerH said:
As has been pointed out, there are legal restrictions in various jurisdictions on what may or may not be carried. The Yojimbo was, I believe, designed to meet those legal restrictions that limit knives carried to folders with blades of 3" or less.
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Well dammit, if the Yojimbo was designed to do the most damage in a small blade, then I want a bigger Yojimbo since it's legal where I'm at!!! Gimme!!!:)
 
FullerH said:
As has been pointed out, there are legal restrictions in various jurisdictions on what may or may not be carried. The Yojimbo was, I believe, designed to meet those legal restrictions that limit knives carried to folders with blades of 3" or less. This is the law in Washington, DC, and in many other jurisdictions. If you believe that the law is wrong, get it changed but do not criticize the knives designed to work within that law. For my part. were I still carrying a knife for self defense, it would be my CUDA MAXX 5.5" Bowie blade folder. It has a VERY solid frame lock and an absolutely huge blade that will both thrust, slash, and do back cuts. Of course, if I were truly serious, Virginia has a shall issue ccw law and I would most likely get one and carry my Glock.

But none of my choices would work in DC, so I would be limited to what I could carry there. If I were carrying an SD knife in DC, it would be a my Gunting. And that is the situation in which the original poster in this thread fnds himself. So his choices would, per force, be very different. He is, apparently, allowed up to 4" blades. My choice at that length would be my Spyderco Terzuola StarMate, followed by my Chinook 2.

BTW, BigJim, on the compression lock and its placement, it is placed in exactly the same location on the Gunting and I would LOVE to see you get into a debate with Bram Frank over the choice of that lock and that location. I would be MOST informative as well as fun to watch.
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If this is the current lock setup for this knife...
http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=38

then I am 99% shure it has been changed from its initial release. Can any spyder heads confirm this? I clearly remember this knife having a lockback or the spyderco version of a lock back. I do not think I have seen the yjohimbo with this style lock or placment. It is certainly different that what I see on the picture on the grunting
http://spyderco.com/news/pr.php?item=10

This is what I remember the Yjohimbo looking like upon initial release except that the lock backs top came flush with the top of the handle and was further towards the rear. A bad spot for reverse grip and such. The grunting looks to far forward to pick up pressure from the same grip. I know you spyderco heads are out there and someone even wrote in to point out the yjohimbo was a lock back. Was it?
 
Yojimbo always had a compression lock as far as I remember, never a lockback. The compression lock is still at the top of the handle, but I've never been able to get one of these to unlock in reverse grip or any grip.
 
No, I dont imagine that the lock pictured would have problems. I Am shure the one I handled was and dont think the compression lock was out the year it was released. give me a minute, trying to find verification. Hmmm...Spyderco says Ronin was 2002 but doenst list the Yjohimbo and its release date in there knife history. TH232, do you remember the Yhojimbo as a lockback, you stated it was one?
 
Sorry Jim, but your driving me nuts. The knife is a Yojimbo, not Yjohimbo or Yhojimbo.
 
HAHA, sorry Kor. If its any consolation your name makes me wana see it as Korbakai. To much Karate kid as a child. Well I cannot find any info on this knife past a few sales pics and reviews. If this is the same lock it has had its whole life it came open on me twisting my hand in a revers grip. I do not know if we got a prototype or if the ergonomics have been changed slightly. It is hard to pull up a photographic memory from so many years ago. If the lock works for you in all grips, then by all means buy one if you like it. In my original post pointing out my problems with the lock, I said "this may just be my hands". Knives are very personal things in the end. One man loves a Sebie, the next man would never buy one. I will eat some humble pie and say if the Yojimbo fits you well in blade size shape and the lock doesnt give you problems, go buy one. If the lock gives no one else problems I will withdraw my "junk" statement and stick with "I hate them".
 
The Yojimbo has never been made with any lock but the Compression Lock and it followed the Ronin onto the market by some months if not a year or so. The Gunting dates tot he late 1990s or early 2000. I know that I had mine by late winter of 2001. It was the first Spyderco to use the Compression Lock and, yes, it looks a bit different from the one on the Yojimbo. That is the resukt of several years' development of the lock. And, btw, it is "Gunting" and not "Grunting".
 
If you are not trained in any martial art that uses a knife, then the chinook is probably not for you. It was designed to be used by someone trained in its capabilities (e.g. the back cut, stabbing, etc.)

The Civilian was purpose built as a slashing last ditch defense knife that can be useful w/o extensive training. It was originally for law enforcement but designed to be used with minimal training. The deep serations, thin tip and recurve make it an intense close quarters slasher to get your attacker off you and for you to escape. Ease of use with minimal training is why the slightly smaller and lighter version, the Matriarch, was made for women in South Africa and Israel. It was designed for women and that's why it's called the Matriarch.

So if you believe the designers, pick the Chinook if you train, pick the Civilian if you don't. Don't listen to the peanut gallery, listen to the designers.
 
BigJimSlade said:
No, I dont imagine that the lock pictured would have problems. I Am shure the one I handled was and dont think the compression lock was out the year it was released. give me a minute, trying to find verification. Hmmm...Spyderco says Ronin was 2002 but doenst list the Yjohimbo and its release date in there knife history. TH232, do you remember the Yhojimbo as a lockback, you stated it was one?
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Close, but not quite. I said the Chinook has a lockback, not a comp lock. Never heard of a lockback Yojimbo.

Th232 said:
Trivial correction: The Chinook has a lockback, not a compression lock.
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According to the 07 catalog, the Yojimbo came out in 04
 
brownshoe said:
If you are not trained in any martial art that uses a knife, then the chinook is probably not for you. It was designed to be used by someone trained in its capabilities (e.g. the back cut, stabbing, etc.)

The Civilian was purpose built as a slashing last ditch defense knife that can be useful w/o extensive training. It was originally for law enforcement but designed to be used with minimal training. The deep serations, thin tip and recurve make it an intense close quarters slasher to get your attacker off you and for you to escape. Ease of use with minimal training is why the slightly smaller and lighter version, the Matriarch, was made for women in South Africa and Israel. It was designed for women and that's why it's called the Matriarch.

So if you believe the designers, pick the Chinook if you train, pick the Civilian if you don't. Don't listen to the peanut gallery, listen to the designers.
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While I agree that it is important to understand the designer's purpose of the knife, I disagree that the designer's intentions are the end-all to any further considerations as to what's best for an individual. A knife designed for SD/combat is based on the designer's methodology of fighting (or whatever term you want to use). And while the design may or may not be the best design for it's intended purpose, the designer (being human) will most likely not consider other factors of combat which may be present. This shouldn't be a surprise since there are so many different styles or systems of combat methodology.

Just because a guy designs the Civilian (for instance) for untrained individuals, does not automatically mean that it is in fact the best choice for the "untrained" individual. The simple logic behind this is that we would just have to trust the guy who made the knife that he does know what's best for me and my individual needs. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that it is or isn't the case. I'm saying that there's more to consider than JUST the designer's intentions.

For the Civilian, the designer obviously didn't think that stabbing was a critical factor for SD (at least for the person he expected to use the Civilian). There are plenty of professionals who would disagree with that. I suppose any professional who disagrees with the designer in this respect are grouped together in the "peanut gallery"? Therefore we shouldn't listen to them?

Prac Tac, here we come...
 
The Chinook has a sharp point, great edge geometry, a rock solid lock, and a secure handle. It absolutely does not need on whit of special training for it to be formidable. Without training, you might not do backcuts with it, but backcuts with a folder -- a 3.75" folder, no less -- is not exactly a high percentage move anyway.

The idea behind the Civilian might be use without extensive training, but all it takes is some pressure testing to realize that people without training want to stab, not slash. Don't believe me, grab some buds and try it.

So, ironically, the purpose-built Chinook folder is the best for novices while still being great for folks with training, and the knife meant for untrained folks is best for those highly trained in the limited strikes it allows.
 
About the Civillian, so correct me if I am wrong; but wasn't it designed to be a "last ditch weapon" and not as a primary one? Meaning it's an ace up the sleeve thingy, to be used in the context of initiating a surprise defensive move against an unsuspecting attacker? Therefore is not quite the best tool when up against a willful attacker who knows what you're armed with? As posted by some here that the hawkbill (or call-it-what-you-may hooked blade) isn't entirely the ideal SD blade pattern for every known defensive situation thrown in.
 
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