Spyderco Civilian

S

sigsauer

Joined
Sep 26, 2000
Messages
342
Hi, I've been looking for one of these for awhile but in plain edge. Other than a few plain edges on the exchange the only ones I've come found from dealers are CF. From what I've read this was designed as a last resort weapon for law enforcement and that it was not designed for daily use due to the thin point. If this is the case it seems to me that using a serrated edge defeats that purpose. The reason I say this is because I feel a serrated edge is for cutting rope and other heavy duty items.

If anyone could give the heads up as to why the serrated edge is more common with this knife and perhaps where I could come across some plain edges, I'd appreciate it.
 
This is because the knife can also be to cut seatbelts,ROPE and other materials without damage to the person. I used it once to retrive a rope during a hike it couldn't reach it but the Civilian extended my reach. If it was plain edge it would have cut the rope. The serrations grab the rope, not cutting it.

This is my story. Hope it helps.

Semper Fi,
Ceya,Ceya Knife Designz..
 
Hi Sig:
The Civilians used to be available in either plain or serrated versions, but the plain edges were dropped from production years ago(other than the special run of carbon fiber models). The serrations were considered more efficient at cutting through material to get to the assailant (like leather jackets sleeves, etc.).

Traditional applications of serrations continues to follow your original thoughts, though. Finding one of the limited PE Civies in aluminum/Tuffram configuration will not be cheap. They're considered collectors items.

Good luck,
Brian
 
Hi Sig. Spyderco serrations will cut 2 - 4 times more aggressively than plain edges of the same steel. The serration is also less likely to be dulled by a metal button or belt buckle.

In most of our "using" models, the serrtions outless plain edges by 2 to 1. If you've not used a Spyderco serrated model, you should try one. Please do not judge Spyderco serrations by the serrations of other companies.

sal
 
Hi and thank for the replies.

Sal, Don't worry from the knives I've had spyderco's serrated models are the only serrated blades I will buy any more. I guess when I read that this model is for defense use and not utility I think of it as a blade to flesh or light t-shirt and not heavy clothing or seat belts. It would seem to me that if it is meant to cut through heavy clothing then it would be good for utility use. Did the tips hold up when ran across a belt buckle or button? Thanks
 
sig, I think your missing the purpose of the civilian knife..... it is meant as a slashing weapon of last resort to get your ass out of thier and make your attacker think twice about attacking you.

classic hit zones for a slashing attack would be the groin going for a femoral artery or the neck going for the carotid artery, both very soft targets but sometimes covered in denim.

what the civilian is not is a stabbing weapon, your going to be hacking and slashing like a madman trying to get thru the guys arms and probably slashing his arms up pretty good seeking the soft spots.

if the tip breaks then the tip bereaks but the knife has enough belly and with the serrations to continue the attck pretty much without losing any of its steam. who cares if the tip breaks in a defensive situation ? more then likely the police are going to confiscate the knife and/or its time to buy another. Let me just add again that the construction of the knife that if the tip did break you would be able to continue attacking with minimal loss of your fighting ability.

The construction of the spyderco civilian just about make me think its asingle use knife then its time to retire it and buy another.... economical ? no..... but when your buying tools to save your life I hope economy is not in your vocabulary.

If tip strength of the civilian bothers you then I would suggest a Harpy or a merlin... or perhaps the endure/delica.
 
The hooked blade shape and serrations work great for cutting line and cordage, ya know, like tendons, arteries, veins, tracheas, muscle fibers.... Seriously, look at the video on the Masters of Defense available from Paladin Press, which is a WEALTH of information that applies to all knives, not just those from MOD. Graciela Casillas shows some simple techniques for using a hookbill knife for defense. I also plan to order James Keating's tape on the use of the Civilian.
 
BTW, I use a Harpy and Civilian, and my wife uses a Harpy and a MOD Ladyhawk. We believe in hookbills! I carry a Gunting as my "primary" EDC, but, then, maybe Spyderco will someday produce a hookbill that uses kinetic opening.....?!!?
 
Can you still stab with a Civilian? I mean, it seems that there are only a few moves in a knife fight, fake, slash and stab. While the Civie looks like a great slasher, in a "less than arms length" encounter a slashing move might not be possible. I hate the thought of not being able to thrust out if need be, but I do love the wicked good looks of a serrated Civilian. I wonder how Keating's video addresses this issue.
 
Most hookbills do not stab well, if at all, assuming "stab" means a thrusting-type motion in line with the axis of the knife's handle. Is that such a disadvantage? (Tomahawks don't stab well, either.) The LaGriffe from Emerson will stab. A hookbill knife allows a "place and cut" type of defense, or "hook and cut" action. I mainly envision my Civilian, as presently carried, to be used to cut someone away from my firearm in a gun-grab situation, or hook-and-cut if I am grappling and/or being "choked out". It is a companion to my Gunting, which of course thrusts quite well. My actual knife training is minimal at this point, and the simple hook-and-cut techniques suit my way of thinking at this time. Next year I do plan to obtain knife training from at least one good instructor, and hopefully more. Then, stabbing may be more of an option for me. Remember, the Civilian was made available largely at the request of a well-known federal agency, whose agents had minimal knife training, but could find themselves in close-range messes. (Yes, I know which agency, and no, I will not say.) Remember, a committed thrust opens one to countermeasures, and I firmly believe in not creating that opening, at my level of training.
 
Tech a Billy states there are only a few moves in a knife fight, fake slash and stab. Why do people have this mindset that the only time a knife will be used for self defense is during a "knife fight". It could be knife against a club, a gun, a kitchen knife, an unarmed rapist just using physical force. Maybe even a pool cue. Who knows, but its better than bear hands. I almost guarantee you though, there is not going to be a "knife duel". You and the perp are not going to square off and go mano a mano with fakes and stabs. More like a struggle to disarm a gun toting mugger or thug when there is no choice and at most you hope to take him when he is expecting to you to be bare hands only. I constantly see these references to knife fighting. Now it is true the ability to penetrate with a stab not just slashing can be useful. But in arms length struggle slash after slash will get their attention and is a natural defensive action. Again, the thrust or stab is a deadly maneuver. But.......there aint gonna be no classic jim bowie knife fight. It just does not happen. Figure on going up against guns most often in real life and not having much of a chance to do anything unless they screw up and leave an opening.
 
Thanks Rex, Mike, and your are right. Spyderco's description of a last ditch defensive tool (not a fighting knife) is what got my attention and I'm fascinated by the design. It's just that I've always felt that knives, like boats, should all have at least one pointy end.:)
 
Like a tomahawk, hawbills have a point, but it is not in line with the handle. If I remember my history correctly, it was Ethiopian warriors at some stage of history that used curved swords sharpened on the inside edge. It is all in the technique. Robert Humelbaugh, who is often seen in the forums, recommends using a Civilian along with a straight blade, in a knife-and-tomahawk manner. I fully agree with him. If I could only carry one knife, it would be the Gunting, which means I agree with Tech a Billy on that point, no pun intended. Mike990, you are absolutely right in that knife duels are very rare, and certainly not likely to see the opponents assuming a fencing-type stance. Most knife fights start as a predator launching a surprise attack on what he perceives to be a easy victim. If the "victim" is fortunate enough to foresee the attack and assume a defensive posture, the predator usually seeks easier prey. A standoff can certainly occur, but outside of a law enforcement situation, the best thing to do is RUN. Your pride, honor, ego, or such are not worth the trouble of trying to explain to a grand jury or trial jury why you had to fillet someone. Most important of all, these are my opinions, and every situation is unique, and what I have said may not apply to your unique situation at a given time.
 
IMO (without much knife training though), with the wicked blade geometry of the blade, landing a decent blow would likely make the BG bleed so much that shock of losing blood would disable the person anyways.
And no it doesn't have to be a knife fight.
 
I work as a parmedic and blood lose would have to be severe for it to overcome the adreneline rush the attacker is going thru to handicap him enough.

figure with an arterial cut your attacker COULD continue the attack for up 3-5 minutes or until his brain ran out of Oxygen. all the blood is good for is getting Oxygen to the brain and muscles..... nothing more.

the only way to stop a fight right away is to take the central nervous system out.
 
The time to incapacitation from blood loss can be quicker than that, and yes, I have seen it happen. It depends on which arteries are severed. But Westicle is right in principle. It does take time for someone to "bleed out" to the point of unconsciousness. It may be necessary to get out of the way, or continue to fight, if an attacker is determined, or is so preoccupied that he does not notice he has been cut. Despite what happens in the movies, most people, when cut, do not yell and examine their wound. Most do not know they have been cut! Being cut is not immediately painful, and yes, I have been there, too, having accidentally put a hatchet into my knee, in what would have been a very bad scene had it occurred in the wilderness. I was not in "fight or flight" at the time and did not know I had been cut until I saw the blood.
 
The hatchet incident leads into another way to stop a fight, which is to either "defang the snake" by incapacitating the arms, or taking away locomotion by incapacitating the legs. In real grappling situations on the street, at work, I have noticed how often bad guys will leave their legs unprotected. There are several tendons which are vulnerable, especially along the rear of the leg. Tendons are much like ropes/cords/lines, and hawkbills are wonderful for that.
 
Calyth, your last post does make sense for most "power" rapists or muggers who would attack a woman. They want an easy victim, and any resistance will result in the bad guy running away. But, be prepared to "follow up" for people such as the "anger rapist" who is extremely misogynistic and may go ballistic when a woman resists him. Sorry for so many shorts posts; AOL kicks me out if I don't transmit fairly often.
 
Deep slashing cuts to the front and or back of an arm and legs of an attacker, probably will not cause him to lose so much blood quickly as to stop an attack, but deep cuts into tendons and major muscles will surely lower his ability to fight. Imagine a deep slash across the back of the leg into the hamstrings. He wont be catching you anytime soon. Ever seen a football player tear one of these and go down in a heap. Same with upper and lower arms. A slash across his face will have so much blood in his eyes he will not be seeing much. One to the inside of the leg will take his femoral artery out so quick its scary. Death would follow that one. Its effective. True a knife that would allow stabs into vitals is a more effective weapon overall, but I imagined this design to be intended for someone with little training to just do what comes natural to someone trying to take them down. One thing with this knife is you have to watch that your weak hand does not get snagged by the hook on the blade. It can be quite easy to misjudge and do this. If I was to toss one knife at an untrained person to protect themselves it would be this one. I would tell them to rake the attacker wherever and whenever they could, and explain the areas that would get the most effect. Its like getting clawed by a tiger.
 
Very well said, Mike! Claws are excellent weapons for the proverbial "fight inside a phone booth" scenario.
 
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