Spyderco H1 steel vs. VG10

if that's the case this doesn't look like a good trade off. 40-50 RCH is a bit low. 440c would be even better! so what makes it more expensive?
 
serrated H-1 has excellent edge holding ability. Plain edge is on par with AUS-8. VG-10 is highly corrosion resistant as well. As Chris Pierce said, H-1 will deform, it is a much tougher steel than VG-10, which is more likely to chip.

I have used both steels on similar platforms (Endura SE, Atlantic Salt PE and Pacific Salt SE) both as a commercial fisherman and a professional mariner. If you are planning on a serrated knife, I would go with H-1, and if you are planning on a plain edge Dragonfly 2, I would save the $12 and get the VG-10. If you aren't using the knife around salt water, the VG-10 is plenty rust resistant.
 
Oh absolutely. The higher carbon steels are better for knives when cutting is the primary requirement. The only reason to use H1 is that corrosion resistance is more important, or a tie with cutting. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the hardness and composition limits. Carbon in iron is still considered steel, all the way down to less than 0.02% carbon. I've seen that Spyderco runs their H1 around 58, but have not seen Spyderco confirm that. Google searching for H1's hardness has proven fruitless w/r to information from Spyderco. H1 is still a single source steel from what I've heard, and the Japanese mills are notoriously tight lipped when it comes to giving out heat treating information specific to their stuff.

For those who have never seen this, it's going to look complicated. Like Big Mike said, just stay below 2.1% carbon, in the area to the left marked steel. Beyond that we move into cast irons, which are interesting, but not knife related.

http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/96ClassProj/examples/kimcon.html
 
I will suggest that the reason you are not finding much on heat treat/hardness of H1 has everything to do with the claims that H1 is not heat treated to achieve hardness. It is work hardened.

There are reports of high hardness on the serrated blades which is said to be the result of the extra machining. Because plain edge requires less grinding they remain softer.

I can say from experience that plain edge holding lies slightly lower than VG-10 but substantially higher than a lot of claims I see posted on forums;)

Edge holding for serrated H1 is reported to be superior to and other serrated edge Spyderco offers. I'd take serrated H1 over serrated VG-10 without hesitation.

I like it for its toughness but I also enjoy being able to tuck a folder IWB in my workout cloths and have no concern for rusted internals after years of doing this.
 
I did some informal testing of a some early Salts and can say that H1 won't rust at all - at least I couldn't get a H1 blade to rust in extended (several weeks) soaks in salt water and bleach even with a copper wire wrapped around the Spyderhole to try to induce some galvanic action.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/344293


I also did a bit of edge holding tests on cardboard pitting VG10 against H1. The serrated H1 virtually tied the VG10 in edge holding, but the plain edged VG10 held an edge about 2 1/2 times as long as plain edged H1.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/372653


My personal preference would generally be H1 for serrated edges and VG10 for plain edges, unless extreme corrosion resistance/ low maintenance is needed such as working in and around salt water.


Another thing to be aware of is that H1 will show scratches with use much more than VG10 and though I have never put it too test, H1 is said to be much less brittle than most knife steels.




Frank
 
unit said:
I will suggest that the reason you are not finding much on heat treat/hardness of H1 has everything to do with the claims that H1 is not heat treated to achieve hardness. It is work hardened.
Click to expand...

Spyderco says it is a precipitation hardening steel, which is a heat treatment. Some precipitation hardening alloys are work hardened, typically cold rolled, in preparation for the precipitation step. It greatly enhances the effectiveness of the precipitation treatment.

H1 is a precipitation-hardened steel
Click to expand...

Granted, this is add copy and cannot be taken as gospel truth, since it also says it contains nitrogen instead of carbon, which should really be in addition to. Looks like the only solution is more research. In spite of being a contrarian on this issue, I still say pick H1. I doubt it would disappoint.
 
TTpower said:
frank thanks for the link on your testing.
Click to expand...

Glad to be of some help. I have been planning on buying a plain edged Dragonfly and am trying to decide between VG10 and ZDP, though I have to admit that yellow H1 version is pretty sweet looking too!
 
I picked up the H1 version alittle while ago and think it will be an excellent knife. I plan on carrying all summer long as it should carry nice in shorts and while I am always down at the beach or lake on walks, swims, etc. I wont have to worry about rust and because of the yellow, I shouldnt have to worry about losing it! :)

Cant wait for the weather to get here so the shorts can come out!!
 
sir_mike said:
I picked up the H1 version alittle while ago and think it will be an excellent knife. I plan on carrying all summer long as it should carry nice in shorts and while I am always down at the beach or lake on walks, swims, etc. I wont have to worry about rust and because of the yellow, I shouldnt have to worry about losing it! :)

Cant wait for the weather to get here so the shorts can come out!!
Click to expand...

mike, did you get the SE or the PE?
 
me2 said:
I'm sure Spyderco has, but they don't tell that I've been able to find.
Click to expand...

Sal has discussed this, though I cannot recall where (thus no links)

Because the alloy is work hardened, it will be hardest where it has been worked most (the edge). Rc testing (at least every tester I have seen or talked to) would be incapable of probing the edge. What would be the utility in reporting hardness of the softest portion of the blade?

I sense that there is speculation that Spyderco is withholding info on this alloy. I really have never had that feeling about Spyderco. This material is well outside the normal paradigm for blade steels, and when it is discussed, the conversations reflect that. In many regards, discussions about heat treat and hardness (in a conventional sense) simply do not apply. Hardness is a moving target with this stuff, and I doubt that every edge is the same hardness as a result of the variability in the practices of finishing blades by hand (Last report was Spyderco is still using people to put the edges on).

I could be wrong, but a few years ago I had a few conversations with Sal. What you read above is what I took away from the conversations.
 
H-1 steel is kind of a toss up. In a plain edge it wont hold that great of an edge compared to VG-10, but because of it's work hardening properties it will hold an edge the more you use and sharpen it and in a serrated model, because of all of the extra working required will give it a wicked hard (64hrc I've heard) cutting edge. So pretty much it's similar to AUS8 in a plain edge and could be up there with ZDP in a spyderedge.
 
Free2game said:
H-1 steel is kind of a toss up. In a plain edge it wont hold that great of an edge compared to VG-10, but because of it's work hardening properties it will hold an edge the more you use and sharpen it and in a serrated model, because of all of the extra working required will give it a wicked hard (64hrc I've heard) cutting edge. So pretty much it's similar to AUS8 in a plain edge and could be up there with ZDP in a spyderedge.
Click to expand...



The consensuses is that the serrated H1 blades do hold up very well.



There's no doubt about it, the extra work hardening of the PH metal makes a big difference.


I wonder if they could do more to work harden the plain edged blades.






Big Mike
 
Big Mike said:
The consensuses is that the serrated H1 blades do hold up very well.



There's no doubt about it, the extra work hardening of the PH metal makes a big difference.


I wonder if they could do more to work harden the plain edged blades.






Big Mike
Click to expand...
Well you should be work hardening it through use and resharpening!
 
I am quite skeptical that the work hardening trait of H1 leads to the kind of edge hardening during sharpening that is often discussed on various forums. Any metal with a degree of ductility will work harden, including steel. However, continued use of a steel on 1095 will not improve its edge holding.

Micro hardness testing would have to be used on just the edge and converted to HRc. However, this is fairly expensive. I think there has been a lot of misinterpretation of how H1 works its magic, but I've never had the impression spyderco was with holding information.
 
An old quote from Sal:

]"Tips are thin and will either break or bend why used for prying. Not a recommended activity for knives. For you to expect a tip to hold up to tough prying is, in my opinion unrealistic. I think if you were going to use one of our H1 knives for light prying, and you didn't want to eait for our fixed blades (still months away) I would suggest the Atlantic Salt. It is a sheepfoot which was designed to be full thickness almost to the tip and had demonstrated that it will handle light prying more effectively.

Other than the testing that we have done at Spyderco (lab testing), there are no other tests, that we know of, other than the tests Crucible did (mentioned below).

Boats,

Thanx for the kind words and support. When we did our testing, the PE model CATRA tested (edge retention) about the same as AUS8, but the serrated version's testing results were much higher. Normally, serrated edges will run about twice the plain edge of same steel and geometry, but the H1 was running about 4 times, up there with powdered metals. A puzzlement.

Hi Mete,

When the foundry rolls the H1, they roll to two different hardness, we end up with 58 for the blade material and considerably lower spec for the lock material. Not meaning to be disrespectful, but the two hardnesses are controlled by the rolling process.

Dick Barber, metallurgist for Crucible steels was curious as to why the H1 steel was testing so well and wanted to do metallurgical testing on the material. We sent them samples and they did their tests. In their micro hardness testing, they found the H1 was differentially hardening. Their explanation was as I described.

The were getting over 60 (64/65 as I remembber the report) at the edge of the blade, 58 at the spine and various hardness in between as they went from the spine to the edge.

The serrted edge version was higher (68 as I remember) which Mr. Barber attributed to the extra "work" (heat) required to serrate the edge over just sharpening as on the plain edge.

If you would like I can fax you, or mail you a copy of the report. Email me your address.

sal "

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/464310-H1-Steel-Experts?highlight=hardness
 
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