Spyderco hole all up in your face

As negative as you all make me out to be, I still plan on getting a PM2. I want to try out the compression lock.
 
Skimo said:
There is NO spyderhole on the Temperance 1, a knife Sal has his mark on... I know because I own and love one.
Click to expand...

When did that come out? Was it 2002 or even earlier? Perhaps there was a time when Spyderco wasn't pressured or felt the urge to represent its trademark even on fixed blades. Perhaps situations like this very topic (BM using it) changed that. The Temperance 2 which came out after the BM litigation has the hole. So do Mules, and collaboration models.

The latest run of kitchen knives do not have the hole as well if anyone is keeping track. Apparently, future batches will have the trademark hole again once the Japanese maker gets comfortable.
 
Uh.....you're getting patents and trademarks confused. I was talking about when Apple tried to PATENT a rectangle. It was recently turned down.

Again, a trademark can't be enforced in liu of functionality. For example, Apple can't use their trademark rectangular shape to disallow anyone else making a phone in the shape of a rectangle (although they tried). Also, Spyderco, in this example, wasn't too happy about Benchmade using their trademark spyder hole, but there wasn't much they could do about it. Well, I guess a big enough company can keep dumping money into law suits and trample on a little guy, but that's another discussion.

Stays Sharp said:
Wait, what's your point..Are you disagreeing with what you quoted me on? Because it was mostly copy and pasted from http://www.uspto.gov sooo.... if you have problem with it, email them or better yet go to their office in person and talk to them about it.

Oh, you mean like when Apple trademarked the word "apple"? Apple, in the computer industry has also patented words like Bonjour, and the name Mac. They even have a trademark on a bitten apple shape.

Reminder:
A trademark can be a word, phrase, symbol, or design that distinguishes the source of the goods or services. Also, as trade dress, it can be the appearance of a product or its packaging, including size, shape, color, texture, graphics, and appearance

As far as function you are correct I guess but it would also be hitting on the trademark at the same time. FYI, this went into litigation and an agreement was made behind closed doors. No one was ever able to squeeze the goods from either side so we do not know what this agreement entails. Why we do not see other brands do this without permission suggests that the trademark hole in the application of knives still stands. Seems like those who collaborate with Spyderco or asks permission is granted limited use. BM is known for taking things without citing its sources. Monolock. LMAO so this fit their MO to the tee.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
seedubs1 said:
Uh.....you're getting patents and trademarks confused. I was talking about when Apple tried to PATENT a rectangle. It was recently turned down.

Again, a trademark can't be enforced in liu of functionality. For example, Apple can't use their trademark rectangular shape to disallow anyone else making a phone in the shape of a rectangle (although they tried). Also, Spyderco, in this example, wasn't too happy about Benchmade using their trademark spyder hole, but there wasn't much they could do about it. Well, I guess a big enough company can keep dumping money into law suits and trample on a little guy, but that's another discussion.
Click to expand...

I am not getting them confused at all. I wasnt ever aware of the Apple/rectangle thing or whether they tried to patent or trademark it or not and just based my reply on your sentence. Perhaps I was replying about something totally different.

Since a trademark cannot be enforced in lieu of functionality, I guess the Spyderhole in a legal sense should be "open season" in the knife industry...But like I said... In the real world: It's not... Why is that? Is it because other companies honor such things? Benchmade can bob and weave through that but the vast majority of other companies respect the trademark as such and either resort to asking permission or going with a different shape of hole... So there you go.. If you want it you got it, you win congrats. It doesn't change the fact that Benchmade is literally the only company that has made this a sore point with Spyderco.
 
As a side note, I'm better at flicking open my Spydercos (including my Enduras and Manixs) then my knives with thumb studs (including the 940). This is because it's what I'm used to. Not because one is better.

Blaming your tools for lack of skill is a bit silly IMO.
 
It was the knife with the hole in the blade that attracted my attention, there were about 100 knives on the table and I was drawn to the lone Spyderco. I was not familiar with the brand, but knew the feel of a quality blade. I now have several in my collection and always look to Spyderco when I have money to buy a new knife. If any 'other brands' have placed a hole in their blades to facilitate opening or attempt to resemble a Spyderco, I feel it is an infringement on Spyderco and down right dirty business!
 
The easiest way to understand the trademark is to look at the auto industry, where identification is critical.

The grill is a "hole" in the front of the car. Dodge cars and trucks have a cross in the grill. Volvo's use a diagonal post in their grill, Mazda is using a smile. Many of the auto companies use a articular shape of grill (Acura, Kia, etc.).

sal
 
I think the round hole is very significant in identifying a Spyderco. It's a complicated topic, as a round hole is also a very functional way to open a folder, and that blurs the line between patent and trademark.

I can understand the arguments on both sides. However, I feel that the trademark of the hole functions more than the patent of the hole. There are many ways to open a knife, but only one says Spyderco.

That is my line of logic, and I am committed to it.

BM is not a respectful company. The forceful use of the hole, pricing and the use of the term, Monolock, have made that clear to me. I have no interest in buying from that company, and no interest in the Axis lock on any knife.
 
Using the Axis lock would be a boon for Spyderco---as it is my favorite lock style----BUT Spyderco generally uses better steels at a much better price point than BM and generally come out of the box sharper too.

Betting they would sell like hotcakes to the general public-----only guys on the forums care where a hole or a lock came from.

So you're in the store looking a 2 products with similar locks and one has better steel and a better price----which one do you think is going to sell?
 
Dano1987 said:
What's with all the HK knives with the spyder hole? I knew benchmade had a griptillian with the hole but why the HK's? Everyone knows that the hole is for Spydercos. Seems like they are just trying to produce a knock off....
Click to expand...

To get back to the original post, I was under the impression (please correct me if I'm wrong here) that Benchmade licensed the use of the Spyderco hole for the AFCK and then subsequently used it in other models. The current Pika II is somewhat akin to the AFCK--in blade shape anyway--and the Spydie hole fits well in the design.

The point of contention here seems to be the concept of trademark. In my opinion, trademark is a good concept and trademarks should be protected. I like the Spydie hole for function. I like Spyderco knives because they are functional. I believe the Spydie hole has become iconic in the cutlery industry and easily qualifies for trademark status. I also like the Benchmade knives I've owned. Benchmade makes good, functional knives. I own a couple of newer HK Pika models and, no, they are not 100% American made. It says "China" right there on the blade. No matter. The Pikas I own are pretty nice knives and country of origin means squat to me these days.
 
Very interesting thread.

Everything in the world has a geometry to it. Yes, a circle is crazy simple and we've all imagined one, but Sal imagined it on a knife blade before anyone else. He also had the foresight to document it so.

The law is the law, but values and integrity are above the law to me. Spyderco has made themselves a model of these. And BTW, even SPYDERCO puts a different hole in their Byrd line of knives. They have also been just ridiculously innovative in the knife world, IMO more than any modern company. Sometimes progress is going in a strong direction and a barrier is ready to be broken and who does it first gets the credit. However, I don't think anyone else would be using spydieholes or axis locks now had these two companies not made these innovations (of course we'll never know). Also, I have a benchmade loco with an oval hole and it works just fine so I don't see the need for Benchmade to even use the trademarked circle hole.

I find it funny that Benchmade, of all companies is the company being taken up for. People get furious when they see a Ganzo with an axis lock. Myself included. And just because the protection of the Axis lock doesn't extend to china doesn't make it right, hence my prior point of values are above the law to me.

Edited

Sal and the rest of spyderco, keep bein' the realest of the real! You'll always keep my support because you are!

P.S. Sorry, but my thoughts were a bit scattered:)
 
Last edited:
Hehe, Sal was asked point blank several times his answer was "No. Benchmade should keep their lock. It's theirs."

I think he's sticking to his guns out of principle. Not going to their level, dont do unto others/Golden Rule kind of thing.

Hey, maybe years down the road when the Axis becomes as common as a framelock across other brands, we may see it who knows. I know one thing, Spyderco has alot of pride in their own in house designed locks.
 
And they should...
ac367d8fcc1919b35b11f4b98db6bdfe.jpg
 
This very discussion is, I believe, what prompted Sal to post the "Shiny Footprints" thread that's stickied in here in the Spydie subforum. Copied here:

Sal Glesser said:
This is a sensitive subject, so I would appreciate your patience and understanding.

The hostility that seems to appear on the forum makes it an uncomfortable place to be. This is opposite the intention.

Much of the hostility seems to be centered around the "round hole issue".

After listening to comments, discussion and much thought (which requires time becausae I'm sometimes slow), I have a request.

I am asking you to pull any tag lines or comments that could be percerived as hostile or antagonistic to other companies in the knife industry, while on our forums.

I realize that to many, it is an important issue, and I will admit to being sensitive myself, but a negative approach is not good for the industry or Spyderco in the industry.

Intelligent, civil communication is more valuable.

We have always tried to "leave shiny footprints" where ever we go. I personally have tried to avoid negative comments towards other companies. (No, I'm not perfect either :o ) I think it serves to keep thoughts about Spyderco and other companies more positive than negative.

If you would like to be closely associated with Spyderco, which we greatly appreciate, it would be our wish that you consider leaving shiny footprints rather than hostile feelings, whjere Spyderco is concerened.

thanx much for your cooperation and kind understanding.

sal
Click to expand...

I agree that Spyderco has a legitimate right to claim trademark on the hole (particularly given its presence on every blade they make, even fixed and autos). But I also appreciate Sal's commitment to maintaining a high degree of professionalism in dealing with others in the cutlery world. He and his family set the bar for class-act.
 
FriarPhenn said:
This very discussion is, I believe, what prompted Sal to post the "Shiny Footprints" thread that's stickied in here in the Spydie subforum. Copied here:



I agree that Spyderco has a legitimate right to claim trademark on the hole (particularly given its presence on every blade they make, even fixed and autos). But I also appreciate Sal's commitment to maintaining a high degree of professionalism in dealing with others in the cutlery world. He and his family set the bar for class-act.
Click to expand...

I'll give a big "Here! Here!" to Sal's comments and intents as quoted above. Spyderco was the first real quality folder I purchased, with the "lowly" Delica being what started me down the path of being a knife nut. I have Sal and the Spyderco team as a whole to thank for that, and I'm glad to see that they uphold a high level of professionalism and respect towards others. Cheers to you for that, Sal!
 
Stays Sharp said:
Benchmade is not a 100% American company. They pulled that illusion over your head by rebranding their China brands as HK or Harley Davidson etc etc. Sorry, but your favorite brand is also paying Chinese people to make knives :) Probably more than Spyderco in volume. It's founder is Filipino who started his knife career making Filipino knives. It's not exactly an all American apple pie story. Nothing wrong with that but dont frame your brand like it has this aura of American-ness lmao. I brought up MAP pricing because you got on your soap box about competition being a good thing. Your brand doesnt even allow knives to be sold competitively in the open market.

Yes the hole isnt a big deal to you or Benchmade, that much is obvious. It doesnt mean that it isn't an identifying attribute to Spyderco for others and if the roles were reversd and BM had something protected and others thought werent a big deal, Im sure you would have your Oregon juices flowing up in arms for it.

Yes you shouldnt care if the Axis lock gets used by other companies... For one, it supports your argument here and two the patent will expire next year anyway so disagreeing wont win you anything anyway.

Chris Reeve allows anyone to use the term integral lock. For one, any patent he had on it would have expired anyway. BM calling it monolock which may even be trademarked like its their innovation is the problem here. Of course, thats not a problem to you since its BM all day.
Click to expand...

ahh the MAP

There are two BM's that i consider right now, the valet and 940. I like the materials on both and the design. I'm sure the execution is good also.

But the problem lies in that MAP and what the prices of those puts them close to. I just bought a nilakka about a week ago, it was just under $190. I got eyes on a dragonfly, firefly, military, chaparral, and a few more. Then theres other companies, like ZT and the 0450 and 0808. Its a shame because id like to put a few BM's a little higher on the list but $$$ is part of what makes the decisions

Spyderco has been stand out to me for a while now and i see myself spending more of my money than id like to spend with them for a while to come.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top